scrubbedexpat099

Coluld they sue the Egyptian Police?

Should they?

krizzy

They didn't know this at the time, so in this context he was still a suspect to them.[/QUOTE

really I was only using the visa thing as a for instant to keep it simple..........and to try to workout when you become a criminal.....the crime could be anything..... it seems you can still be a criminal before going to court.......

krizzy

It will be interesting to know if the guy was in Britain with a visa or not.....the home office will not say...a sign to me that maybe he was in Britain with a visa.....

Would this change my mind about what happened.........no...the police did their job.....I hope they carry on doing it without fear....

The family getting money......if he was in the UK with a visa......then I think the UK will have to pay the family for their loss...........

scrubbedexpat099

Sign to me that he was not, just trying to work out what would be the Brazillian Electrician Visa.

They have to prove negligence for the first part, and then loss. The only loss I can see is funeral expenses, probably taken care of by his Gov, and loss of income if they can show dependancy. But as I asked initially, can you sue for loss of illegal earnings?

Franklin

Imho, if filed, it will be something along the lines of a wrongful death suit, loss of companionship, etc. My best guess: substantial out-of-court settlement directed to the next of kin and further money directed to a foundation or good works in the name of the victim, Jean Charles de Menezes. A good hard-working man with aspirations to save up enough money to start a ranch back in his native Brazil. This is a tragedy. No winners here. The victim deserved better, but the officer(s) who killed him acted in good faith. There will of course be at least one investigation of the circumstances surrounding the shooting, but there will be no disciplinary action. Such is the fog of war, these things will happen again. The real criminals here are the actual bombers, not the police officers or the rules under which they now operate when dealing with suspect suicide bombers.

Mercedes

I wonder what compensation the victim's families of the bombings will get if any.

Franklin

I am not an English lawyer, but my best guess (based on US majority Tort law (which covers negligence cases), much of which is based on English common law): shooting someone who turns out to be innocent is negligence on its face and triggers strict liability doctrine - same kind of Tort logic applied to dangerous animals or use of dangerous weapons when an innocent person is bitten or shot, strict liability ensues. There will be a substantial settlement. But for the police firing a gun into the head of my client, he would be alive today ... strict liability case. The only issue is (now moot): did the Police shoot Jean Charles de Menezes, given that the Police have already apologized for shooting one Jean Charles de Menezes, this matter is now moot. The Police are liable under strict liability doctrine, I suppose the Police Commissioner will the the target of the legal action, but frankly, I think the Police Commissioner will admit liability and the matter will go to arbitration, or its functional equivalent. There will be a substantial out of court settlement to Jean Charles de Menezes' estate, his next of kin.

krizzy

My problem if he was illegal is....you can't profit from a crime......so it would be wrong to give his family money for loss of illegal earnings......

If he was legal......then I would like to see his family get loss of earnings and funeral costs......the loss of earnings should be the amount he could earn while his visa is in date..or a trust to care for his parents weekly until their deaths...to the amount he normally sent home.........his parents should then get money for lose of a son....pain and suffering......
I think it would only be right to give money without proving negligence.....this could happen again....and if it were a Brit.....we would want to see his family taken care of......

Franklin

Looking at this dispassionately .. it's a civil matter, negligence on its face ... no contest. As to whether he should have stopped, yes he should have stopped, but shooting someone who does not stop would be "OK" under current rules so long as the person shot was in fact a suicide bomber. Jean Charles de Menezes was not, and never has been, a suicide bomber. The police have admitted they shot Jean Charles de Menezes and admitted that Jean Charles de Menezes is innocent, i.e., not a suicide bomber, and played no part in the recent bombings, so its an open and shut case; a good case as Tort lawyers might say. The police made a mistake, so they will offer compensation in the form of money. Not a good substitute for the life of a much loved and now sadly missed son, brother, etc. But that is all the Police can offer in terms of real compensation. Its not a perfect system.

Franklin

Does the Criminal Compensation Board still operate in the UK? If so, there will be compensation flowing from the same.

If it turns out that one or more of the bombers happens to be super rich (unlikely, agreed), then it is not inconceivable that there will be civil court action seeking substantial damages on behalf of those with injuries and lost loved ones, etc.

krizzy

I can't be happy with profit from a crime.......no matter what......I will be much happier to find out the guy was legal......and have everything nice and clean.......
Seeing as police can only know if someone is a suicide bomber after the fact...this is going to be a nightmare for everyone.......

scrubbedexpat099

I am more familiar with the UK Tort system.

I do not understand why it would be substantial, or is that substantial in Brazillian terms?

The only issue of consequence is loss of earnings, if allowable, I would not have thought whatever he was sending back would have been that much, and of course it would have to be substantiated.

And then there is the contributary negligence to be taken into account, assuming strict liability, which is by no means assured.

krizzy

I've just found a site about the Theories of Tort Law.......which I'll read up on tomorrow.......just out of interest......

NJ_Dave

A final thought, with respect to what effect this event will have on British society:

when the police can't do their job properly because they are afraid of being sued, what happens to society (particularly law and order) then?

fatbrit

Er...When people can't sue when the police do their job improperly and cause them damage, what happens to society then?