Brazilian family intends to sue police
Jul 25th 2005, 11:54 am
#166
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 22,105
Re: Bralian family intends to sue police
Originally Posted by ImHere
as I said before..
Police officers get a split second to make life or death decisions based on limited information. Lawyers and everyone else get days months and even years to debate on what could should and did happen based on information not neccessarilly available to the officers at the material time.
It is a simple fact that based on the security alert at the time the officers were likely under orders to prevent another bombing anyway possible...even the use of lethal force. No situation is cut and dried.
I also notice noone (those that I read) have contemplated the effects on the officers that they now have to deal with the life long knowledge they killed someone innocent or not.
I will not pass comment on the officers actions as I was not there and I have no real knowledge of the situation as do none here. But quite frankly you should all be thankful that there are people willing to take the personal risks and consequences suffered in attempting to keep everyone else safe.
Police officers get a split second to make life or death decisions based on limited information. Lawyers and everyone else get days months and even years to debate on what could should and did happen based on information not neccessarilly available to the officers at the material time.
It is a simple fact that based on the security alert at the time the officers were likely under orders to prevent another bombing anyway possible...even the use of lethal force. No situation is cut and dried.
I also notice noone (those that I read) have contemplated the effects on the officers that they now have to deal with the life long knowledge they killed someone innocent or not.
I will not pass comment on the officers actions as I was not there and I have no real knowledge of the situation as do none here. But quite frankly you should all be thankful that there are people willing to take the personal risks and consequences suffered in attempting to keep everyone else safe.
Jul 25th 2005, 11:56 am
#167
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Bralian family intends to sue police
Originally Posted by AmerLisa
When did you say that before? I haven't seen you on here in a few days?
Jul 25th 2005, 12:03 pm
#168
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2005
Location: CA
Posts: 857
Re: Bralian family intends to sue police
[QUOTE=ImHere]I also notice noone (those that I read) have contemplated the effects on the officers that they now have to deal with the life long knowledge they killed someone innocent or not.
QUOTE]
Not entirely correct ... I mentioned this earlier, as have a couple of other people who have posted in this thread.
I don't think there can be many people who would not wonder how the police officer involved is coping with this situation. An officer may be trained and may act on specific orders, but, I suspect that would never make the act of actually taking someones life any easier to live with.
QUOTE]
Not entirely correct ... I mentioned this earlier, as have a couple of other people who have posted in this thread.
I don't think there can be many people who would not wonder how the police officer involved is coping with this situation. An officer may be trained and may act on specific orders, but, I suspect that would never make the act of actually taking someones life any easier to live with.
Jul 25th 2005, 12:05 pm
#169
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Mar 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,296
Re: Bralian family intends to sue police
Originally Posted by Lion in Winter
a) I think we've beaten this one into the ground. My contention was that since they had already followed him all the way from bloody Streatham, or wherever it was, they might have considered stopping him before he went into a Tube station and the whole thing became a dire emergency.
b) No, not the bombs, as such. London has been bombed before. I mean the change to living in a society where it is considered acceptable, normal even, to have armed police shooting people. It's so easy. Look at the furious arguments on BE alone over the last few days - from an apparently peacable, tolerant society. Hasn't the UK always prided itself on not having a police force armed to the teeth, with the right to shoot. I'm afraid I see it as another foot on a very slipperty slope.
b) No, not the bombs, as such. London has been bombed before. I mean the change to living in a society where it is considered acceptable, normal even, to have armed police shooting people. It's so easy. Look at the furious arguments on BE alone over the last few days - from an apparently peacable, tolerant society. Hasn't the UK always prided itself on not having a police force armed to the teeth, with the right to shoot. I'm afraid I see it as another foot on a very slipperty slope.
b) Only a small minority of the police are armed. London has been blitzed and subject to terrorist bombings before but suicide bombers are a whole new ball game. Dixon of Dock Green mentality aint going to work here.
I would hate to see all police in London armed and hope it never comes to that, but I have no problem with specially trained police being armed and have the right to shoot whilst Britain is under this kind of threat.
US cops shoot people on the streets every week here and it often doesn't even make the news. Just last week a man was shot in Bradenton- completely innocent working on someone's car in their driveway and there was a drug raid in the area- he got shot, it didn't even make the local news, my hairdresser told me about it.
Jul 25th 2005, 12:07 pm
#170
Re vera, potas bene.
Joined: Jun 2005
Location: Cape Cod MA..Davenport FL
Posts: 2,405
Re: Bralian family intends to sue police
Originally Posted by ImHere
as I said before..
Police officers get a split second to make life or death decisions based on limited information. Lawyers and everyone else get days months and even years to debate on what could should and did happen based on information not neccessarilly available to the officers at the material time.
It is a simple fact that based on the security alert at the time the officers were likely under orders to prevent another bombing anyway possible...even the use of lethal force. No situation is cut and dried.
I also notice noone (those that I read) have contemplated the effects on the officers that they now have to deal with the life long knowledge they killed someone innocent or not.
I will not pass comment on the officers actions as I was not there and I have no real knowledge of the situation as do none here. But quite frankly you should all be thankful that there are people willing to take the personal risks and consequences suffered in attempting to keep everyone else safe.
Police officers get a split second to make life or death decisions based on limited information. Lawyers and everyone else get days months and even years to debate on what could should and did happen based on information not neccessarilly available to the officers at the material time.
It is a simple fact that based on the security alert at the time the officers were likely under orders to prevent another bombing anyway possible...even the use of lethal force. No situation is cut and dried.
I also notice noone (those that I read) have contemplated the effects on the officers that they now have to deal with the life long knowledge they killed someone innocent or not.
I will not pass comment on the officers actions as I was not there and I have no real knowledge of the situation as do none here. But quite frankly you should all be thankful that there are people willing to take the personal risks and consequences suffered in attempting to keep everyone else safe.
Hey have you been out RVing......?? it is you that owns one......is it not..??
I have a friend back in the UK who is a Gov brain doctor......he's been traveling on the subway talking to people and police....and I'm hoping he can say something about what he's seen and heard......but I'm sure he can't.....cus if he did...they may have too shot him....ops..... :scared:
He does the same in the army.......and goes to the middle east a lot.....he is very PC...but I've seen a change in him the last few months.......for one thing he is now agreeing with me more.......
I know his work is not T.S.....but I still think he is not to talk about it until reports are in......and it is published.........
Jul 25th 2005, 12:12 pm
#171
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Mar 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,296
Re: Bralian family intends to sue police
Originally Posted by ImHere
I also notice noone (those that I read) have contemplated the effects on the officers that they now have to deal with the life long knowledge they killed someone innocent or not.
I will not pass comment on the officers actions as I was not there and I have no real knowledge of the situation as do none here. But quite frankly you should all be thankful that there are people willing to take the personal risks and consequences suffered in attempting to keep everyone else safe.
Last edited by Taffyles; Jul 25th 2005 at 12:22 pm.
Jul 25th 2005, 12:15 pm
#172
Failed Expat ;-)
Joined: Aug 2004
Location: (Great) Britain
Posts: 7,392
Re: Bralian family intends to sue police
Originally Posted by Lion in Winter
People aren't criminals until they've been tried and convicted.
Jul 25th 2005, 12:20 pm
#173
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: East Seaxe
Posts: 73,211
Re: Bralian family intends to sue police
Originally Posted by dbickle
If the police have reasonable suspicion about somebody, they have every right to challenge them, whether they are criminals or not. Many of the 9/11 bombers had clean criminal records, as did the people who carried out the attacks on London 2 weeks ago.
I objected to you calling them criminals just because the police ask them to stop. That does not make one a criminal.
Jul 25th 2005, 12:23 pm
#174
Failed Expat ;-)
Joined: Aug 2004
Location: (Great) Britain
Posts: 7,392
Re: Bralian family intends to sue police
Originally Posted by Lion in Winter
I didn't say they couldn't challenge them.
I objected to you calling them criminals just because the police ask them to stop. That does not make one a criminal.
I objected to you calling them criminals just because the police ask them to stop. That does not make one a criminal.
Jul 25th 2005, 12:25 pm
#175
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: East Seaxe
Posts: 73,211
Re: Bralian family intends to sue police
Originally Posted by dbickle
I never called him a criminal, I called him a suspect
I was referring to this post of yours:
Maybe it will make people think twice before running from the police. That's a major blow to society for criminals, but I don't see how it affects the average Brit.
Jul 25th 2005, 12:39 pm
#176
Failed Expat ;-)
Joined: Aug 2004
Location: (Great) Britain
Posts: 7,392
Re: Bralian family intends to sue police
Originally Posted by Lion in Winter
I was referring to this post of yours:
If you did not mean to imply that people are criminals before trial, then I apologise. It's been a trying day.
If you did not mean to imply that people are criminals before trial, then I apologise. It's been a trying day.
Jul 25th 2005, 1:02 pm
#177
Re vera, potas bene.
Joined: Jun 2005
Location: Cape Cod MA..Davenport FL
Posts: 2,405
Re: Bralian family intends to sue police
Originally Posted by dbickle
That was not the intent of that post. Sorry for the confusion
In the legal dicionary.....
crim·i·nal
1. One who has committed a crime
2. A person who has been convicted of a crime
So someone who has say....stayed in a country when their visa has run out....could be called a criminal.....because he has committed a crime.......??
Jul 25th 2005, 1:04 pm
#178
Failed Expat ;-)
Joined: Aug 2004
Location: (Great) Britain
Posts: 7,392
Re: Bralian family intends to sue police
Originally Posted by krizzy
In the legal dicionary.....
crim·i·nal
1. One who has committed a crime
2. A person who has been convicted of a crime
So someone who has say....stayed in a country when their visa has run out....could be called a criminal.....because he has committed a crime.......??
crim·i·nal
1. One who has committed a crime
2. A person who has been convicted of a crime
So someone who has say....stayed in a country when their visa has run out....could be called a criminal.....because he has committed a crime.......??
Jul 25th 2005, 1:07 pm
#179
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 14,578
Re: Bralian family intends to sue police
Originally Posted by ImHere
as I said before..
Police officers get a split second to make life or death decisions based on limited information. Lawyers and everyone else get days months and even years to debate on what could should and did happen based on information not neccessarilly available to the officers at the material time.
It is a simple fact that based on the security alert at the time the officers were likely under orders to prevent another bombing anyway possible...even the use of lethal force. No situation is cut and dried.
I also notice noone (those that I read) have contemplated the effects on the officers that they now have to deal with the life long knowledge they killed someone innocent or not.
I will not pass comment on the officers actions as I was not there and I have no real knowledge of the situation as do none here. But quite frankly you should all be thankful that there are people willing to take the personal risks and consequences suffered in attempting to keep everyone else safe.
Police officers get a split second to make life or death decisions based on limited information. Lawyers and everyone else get days months and even years to debate on what could should and did happen based on information not neccessarilly available to the officers at the material time.
It is a simple fact that based on the security alert at the time the officers were likely under orders to prevent another bombing anyway possible...even the use of lethal force. No situation is cut and dried.
I also notice noone (those that I read) have contemplated the effects on the officers that they now have to deal with the life long knowledge they killed someone innocent or not.
I will not pass comment on the officers actions as I was not there and I have no real knowledge of the situation as do none here. But quite frankly you should all be thankful that there are people willing to take the personal risks and consequences suffered in attempting to keep everyone else safe.
We're all passing judgement based on what little evidence we have; it's easy to say "why didn't they stop him earlier?" when we weren't there. We'll all have to wait and see what the inquiry comes out with.
Really the issue is, what makes a person a 'suspected suicide bomber'? You have to treat them as *suicide bombers* which results in leathal force being used if it's deemed necessary.
Jul 25th 2005, 1:14 pm
#180
Account Closed
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 2
Re: Bralian family intends to sue police
None of the defendants of the Brazillian seem equallly bothered about this, but then they were not there illegally, did not run from armed police, did not jump the Underground barriers and did not enter an underground train in a heavy jacket on a hot summer day after leaving a suspects house.
A Briton who died in the bombing at the Egyptian resort of Sharm al-Sheikh has been named by his family as Keri Davies, 29, from Fareham, Hampshire.
Mr Davies' mother said the Foreign Office had confirmed his death. Concerns are also growing for his American partner, Kristina Miller, 26.
UK officials have said 10 more Britons are missing and "of particular concern", but are not "presumed dead".
Hospital officials have said the death toll from the attacks could reach 88.
Earlier, a hospital manager in the Red Sea resort had said two Britons died in Saturday's attacks.
A Briton who died in the bombing at the Egyptian resort of Sharm al-Sheikh has been named by his family as Keri Davies, 29, from Fareham, Hampshire.
Mr Davies' mother said the Foreign Office had confirmed his death. Concerns are also growing for his American partner, Kristina Miller, 26.
UK officials have said 10 more Britons are missing and "of particular concern", but are not "presumed dead".
Hospital officials have said the death toll from the attacks could reach 88.
Earlier, a hospital manager in the Red Sea resort had said two Britons died in Saturday's attacks.
