US Diplomat's wife kills biker in UK then flees country :(
May 13th 2020, 9:16 am
#211
Banned
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 614
Re: US Diplomat's wife kills biker in UK then flees country :(
One Chelsea Manning contacted Wikileaks. Among the 'leaks' leaked was a video "which WikiLeaks titled Collateral Murder, showed that the crew fired on a group of men and laughed at some of the casualties, some of whom were civilians and reporters. An anonymous U.S. military official confirmed the authenticity of the footage".
A reasonable observer would conclude that this event witnessed murder. The ensuing US report on the incident sought to excuse actions of those involved.
One Mrs Sacoolas, driving on the wrong side of the road, struck and killed a motor cyclist. She later fled the UK claiming Diplomatic Imunity. A subsequent request for extradition from the US was denied.
What have these two events in common?
It's a pattern of behaviour by US citizens living abroad that, although deplorable when judged by civilised standards, is condoned and defended by US officials.
'Why do they choose to behave like this?' you might ask.
It's because the US places itself above international norms. Rules that apply to others cannot be used to judge US citizens because they're able to act with impunity.
A reasonable observer would conclude that this event witnessed murder. The ensuing US report on the incident sought to excuse actions of those involved.
One Mrs Sacoolas, driving on the wrong side of the road, struck and killed a motor cyclist. She later fled the UK claiming Diplomatic Imunity. A subsequent request for extradition from the US was denied.
What have these two events in common?
It's a pattern of behaviour by US citizens living abroad that, although deplorable when judged by civilised standards, is condoned and defended by US officials.
'Why do they choose to behave like this?' you might ask.
It's because the US places itself above international norms. Rules that apply to others cannot be used to judge US citizens because they're able to act with impunity.
And fwiw we don't exactly punish our armed forces either. The solider convicted of shooting that wounded civilian or was it a terrorist fighter I don't recall. Either way got 10 years minimum in a uk military court for murder. The minimum term for shooting murder in UK is a starting point of THIRTY YEARS.
Last edited by andyrebell; May 13th 2020 at 9:27 am.
May 13th 2020, 4:28 pm
#212
Listen to the Music
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: Fraser Valley BC
Posts: 4,729
Re: US Diplomat's wife kills biker in UK then flees country :(
And fwiw we don't exactly punish our armed forces either. The solider convicted of shooting that wounded civilian or was it a terrorist fighter I don't recall. Either way got 10 years minimum in a uk military court for murder. The minimum term for shooting murder in UK is a starting point of THIRTY YEARS.
Nation states take young men full of testosterone, give them weapons, teach them to use them, encourage them to view the enemy as vermin, and are then self righteously upset when they do precisely what they've been trained and given overt permission to do.
I suppose the wonder is, that among those who form part of this killing industry, there are some who still manage to recognise right from wrong. The Chelsea Mannings of the world do well to keep their heads down because they move within a world actively seeking to cut it off.
But I take your point that most nations, if not all, protect their soldiers when they step over the bounds of acceptable behaviour, but how do you manage those who actually enjoy behaving criminally within a system designed with purpose to protect those who exhibit such behaviour?
Little wonder they seek to keep unacceptable behaviour quiet and shoot the messenger whenever and wherever they find them.
May 13th 2020, 5:15 pm
#213
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jan 2006
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 12,865
Re: US Diplomat's wife kills biker in UK then flees country :(
The most that can be hoped for is that she is unable to travel to most of the world after this incident Of course, the US would pressure a country not to hand her over, but the fear of being arrested abroad may deter her from travel. It's really an unfortunate situation that she is able to avoid answering charges in the death of someone.
May 13th 2020, 9:58 pm
#214
Account Closed
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 0
Re: US Diplomat's wife kills biker in UK then flees country :(
I suppose the biggest reason this case seems to be getting so much attention is because it involves the US.
But not as if the this is the first time a country has refused to waive immunity in a serious criminal matter, ask NYC DA how many times they have been successful in getting countries to waive immunity so they can be prosecuted, its not very often. There have been some serious crimes committed in Canada by those with immunity, few if any could be prosecuted, the German who beat his wife in NYC and then fled home, as far as I know Germany never waived immunity, and the list goes on. No country wants to be the one to start setting such a precedent.
But not as if the this is the first time a country has refused to waive immunity in a serious criminal matter, ask NYC DA how many times they have been successful in getting countries to waive immunity so they can be prosecuted, its not very often. There have been some serious crimes committed in Canada by those with immunity, few if any could be prosecuted, the German who beat his wife in NYC and then fled home, as far as I know Germany never waived immunity, and the list goes on. No country wants to be the one to start setting such a precedent.
May 13th 2020, 10:44 pm
#215
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jan 2006
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 12,865
Re: US Diplomat's wife kills biker in UK then flees country :(
I suppose the biggest reason this case seems to be getting so much attention is because it involves the US.
But not as if the this is the first time a country has refused to waive immunity in a serious criminal matter, ask NYC DA how many times they have been successful in getting countries to waive immunity so they can be prosecuted, its not very often. There have been some serious crimes committed in Canada by those with immunity, few if any could be prosecuted, the German who beat his wife in NYC and then fled home, as far as I know Germany never waived immunity, and the list goes on. No country wants to be the one to start setting such a precedent.
But not as if the this is the first time a country has refused to waive immunity in a serious criminal matter, ask NYC DA how many times they have been successful in getting countries to waive immunity so they can be prosecuted, its not very often. There have been some serious crimes committed in Canada by those with immunity, few if any could be prosecuted, the German who beat his wife in NYC and then fled home, as far as I know Germany never waived immunity, and the list goes on. No country wants to be the one to start setting such a precedent.
May 14th 2020, 12:08 am
#216
Account Closed
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 26,319
Re: US Diplomat's wife kills biker in UK then flees country :(
ITV News has seen some of the confidential documents used by the Foreign Office to assess whether Anne Sacoolas had diplomatic immunity in the days following Harry Dunn's death.
The papers concern secret arrangements covering RAF Croughton where her husband worked as a US military intelligence officer.
The agreement was covered by an Exchange of Letters between the US and UK in 1995 and 2001. The documents we've seen include diplomatic notes and sensitive discussions between the two governments.
They make clear that when the arrangements were drawn up both governments agreed that US staff covered by diplomatic immunity at RAF Croughton would face an automatic waiver from that immunity if they were to commit a criminal act outside their duties.
The key issue in the Harry Dunn case is whether Mrs Sacoolas - as a spouse - had diplomatic immunity at the time of the crash. Nothing in the agreement, or in the discussions at the time it was drawn up seen by ITV News, makes any reference to whether staff spouses have immunity.But the Dunn family's legal team say she didn't have diplomatic immunity. Even if she did, they say, it should have been waived.
A 1995 draft of the 'Croughton' agreement we've seen outlines the UK government's position on the base.
It says the government is “only willing to accept ...persons as members of the A&T (Administrative and Technical) staff of the US embassy in London with the privileges and immunity ... on the understanding that the US Government ... waives the immunity from criminal jurisdiction of these employees in respect of acts performed outside the course of their duties."
In August 2000, a Foreign Office letter to the US embassy about the arrangements says: "You would also agree to a waiver of immunity from criminal jurisdiction."
A diplomatic note from the US embassy in October 2000 refers to a letter from the US Ambassador William J. Crowe, Jr. in August 1995. It says he accepted the offer to "grant diplomatic agent status ...on the condition that the US Government agrees in advance to waive the immunity from criminal jurisdiction in respect to acts performed outside their course of duties."
The papers concern secret arrangements covering RAF Croughton where her husband worked as a US military intelligence officer.
The agreement was covered by an Exchange of Letters between the US and UK in 1995 and 2001. The documents we've seen include diplomatic notes and sensitive discussions between the two governments.
They make clear that when the arrangements were drawn up both governments agreed that US staff covered by diplomatic immunity at RAF Croughton would face an automatic waiver from that immunity if they were to commit a criminal act outside their duties.
The key issue in the Harry Dunn case is whether Mrs Sacoolas - as a spouse - had diplomatic immunity at the time of the crash. Nothing in the agreement, or in the discussions at the time it was drawn up seen by ITV News, makes any reference to whether staff spouses have immunity.But the Dunn family's legal team say she didn't have diplomatic immunity. Even if she did, they say, it should have been waived.
A 1995 draft of the 'Croughton' agreement we've seen outlines the UK government's position on the base.
It says the government is “only willing to accept ...persons as members of the A&T (Administrative and Technical) staff of the US embassy in London with the privileges and immunity ... on the understanding that the US Government ... waives the immunity from criminal jurisdiction of these employees in respect of acts performed outside the course of their duties."
In August 2000, a Foreign Office letter to the US embassy about the arrangements says: "You would also agree to a waiver of immunity from criminal jurisdiction."
A diplomatic note from the US embassy in October 2000 refers to a letter from the US Ambassador William J. Crowe, Jr. in August 1995. It says he accepted the offer to "grant diplomatic agent status ...on the condition that the US Government agrees in advance to waive the immunity from criminal jurisdiction in respect to acts performed outside their course of duties."
In my reading of this, there's no way she had legal diplomatic immunity, either as a spouse (but even if she was), there was no immunity from criminal actions outside the course of duties. And there was no suggestion she was actually employed at the base either.
May 14th 2020, 2:02 am
#217
Joined: Feb 2012
Location: Not in Paris
Posts: 18,194
Re: US Diplomat's wife kills biker in UK then flees country :(
ITV News sees confidential documents used to assess if Anne Sacoolas had diplomatic immunity following Harry Dunn death
My emphasis in bold.
In my reading of this, there's no way she had legal diplomatic immunity, either as a spouse (but even if she was), there was no immunity from criminal actions outside the course of duties. And there was no suggestion she was actually employed at the base either.
My emphasis in bold.
In my reading of this, there's no way she had legal diplomatic immunity, either as a spouse (but even if she was), there was no immunity from criminal actions outside the course of duties. And there was no suggestion she was actually employed at the base either.
May 14th 2020, 7:52 pm
#218
Banned
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 614
Re: US Diplomat's wife kills biker in UK then flees country :(
I suppose the biggest reason this case seems to be getting so much attention is because it involves the US.
But not as if the this is the first time a country has refused to waive immunity in a serious criminal matter, ask NYC DA how many times they have been successful in getting countries to waive immunity so they can be prosecuted, its not very often. There have been some serious crimes committed in Canada by those with immunity, few if any could be prosecuted, the German who beat his wife in NYC and then fled home, as far as I know Germany never waived immunity, and the list goes on. No country wants to be the one to start setting such a precedent.
But not as if the this is the first time a country has refused to waive immunity in a serious criminal matter, ask NYC DA how many times they have been successful in getting countries to waive immunity so they can be prosecuted, its not very often. There have been some serious crimes committed in Canada by those with immunity, few if any could be prosecuted, the German who beat his wife in NYC and then fled home, as far as I know Germany never waived immunity, and the list goes on. No country wants to be the one to start setting such a precedent.
May 14th 2020, 7:55 pm
#219
Banned
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 614
Re: US Diplomat's wife kills biker in UK then flees country :(
As you say, this is a smelly can of worms isn't it?
Nation states take young men full of testosterone, give them weapons, teach them to use them, encourage them to view the enemy as vermin, and are then self righteously upset when they do precisely what they've been trained and given overt permission to do.
I suppose the wonder is, that among those who form part of this killing industry, there are some who still manage to recognise right from wrong. The Chelsea Mannings of the world do well to keep their heads down because they move within a world actively seeking to cut it off.
But I take your point that most nations, if not all, protect their soldiers when they step over the bounds of acceptable behaviour, but how do you manage those who actually enjoy behaving criminally within a system designed with purpose to protect those who exhibit such behaviour?
Little wonder they seek to keep unacceptable behaviour quiet and shoot the messenger whenever and wherever they find them.
Nation states take young men full of testosterone, give them weapons, teach them to use them, encourage them to view the enemy as vermin, and are then self righteously upset when they do precisely what they've been trained and given overt permission to do.
I suppose the wonder is, that among those who form part of this killing industry, there are some who still manage to recognise right from wrong. The Chelsea Mannings of the world do well to keep their heads down because they move within a world actively seeking to cut it off.
But I take your point that most nations, if not all, protect their soldiers when they step over the bounds of acceptable behaviour, but how do you manage those who actually enjoy behaving criminally within a system designed with purpose to protect those who exhibit such behaviour?
Little wonder they seek to keep unacceptable behaviour quiet and shoot the messenger whenever and wherever they find them.
May 14th 2020, 8:40 pm
#220
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Nov 2011
Location: Somewhere between Vancouver & St Johns
Posts: 19,851
Re: US Diplomat's wife kills biker in UK then flees country :(
But this has the potential to destroy relations between the UK and the USA it really does. This isn't a german man beating his german wife and leaving the country this is US Citizen killing a citizen of A British Citizen and walking away. We could close the embassy over this. A braver leader might but Johnson won't. We could kick the yanks out of the UK bases. A braver leader might but we won't. The yanks haven't banned anyone from travelling to America over this yet. What if they do? How can we remain on the VWP after that? It would almost impossible.
No UK leader now or in the future will do anything about this. Why would the US close off their country to UK citizens even if we maintain the current stance with them over this incident?
It was a tragic accident and could have resulted in criminal charges had she remained in the UK. I sincerely doubt she meant to do it unless she was stupid enough to admit this during a police interview or in court.
Granted this is no comfort to the family etc but it is what it is.
I am pretty sure that most UK citizens would like her to face the music but it aint going to happen unless she returns to the UK.
Stop getting worked up about it as there is nothing you can do about it and nothing the UK Govt will do about it.
May 14th 2020, 9:02 pm
#221
Concierge
Joined: Jan 2013
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 21,140
Re: US Diplomat's wife kills biker in UK then flees country :(
I suppose the biggest reason this case seems to be getting so much attention is because it involves the US.
But not as if the this is the first time a country has refused to waive immunity in a serious criminal matter, ask NYC DA how many times they have been successful in getting countries to waive immunity so they can be prosecuted, its not very often. There have been some serious crimes committed in Canada by those with immunity, few if any could be prosecuted, the German who beat his wife in NYC and then fled home, as far as I know Germany never waived immunity, and the list goes on. No country wants to be the one to start setting such a precedent.
But not as if the this is the first time a country has refused to waive immunity in a serious criminal matter, ask NYC DA how many times they have been successful in getting countries to waive immunity so they can be prosecuted, its not very often. There have been some serious crimes committed in Canada by those with immunity, few if any could be prosecuted, the German who beat his wife in NYC and then fled home, as far as I know Germany never waived immunity, and the list goes on. No country wants to be the one to start setting such a precedent.
May 14th 2020, 9:48 pm
#222
Joined: Dec 2001
Location: Dixie, ex UK
Posts: 52,448
Re: US Diplomat's wife kills biker in UK then flees country :(
But this has the potential to destroy relations between the UK and the USA it really does. ..... We could close the embassy over this. ..... We could kick the yanks out of the UK bases. ..... The yanks haven't banned anyone from travelling to America over this yet. What if they do? .....
.... And all this was quite obviously an accident - a stupid one, arguably reckless, but the chances of Sacoolas being sentenced to anything other than probation was always unlikely even if she had stayed to face the music.... It was a tragic accident and could have resulted in criminal charges had she remained in the UK. I sincerely doubt she meant to do it unless she was stupid enough to admit this during a police interview or in court.
Granted this is no comfort to the family etc but it is what it is. .....
Granted this is no comfort to the family etc but it is what it is. .....
(@Former Lancastrian: I replied before I read your post.)
Last edited by Pulaski; May 14th 2020 at 9:52 pm.
May 14th 2020, 10:13 pm
#223
Joined: Apr 2005
Location: Milwaukie, Oregon
Posts: 9,966
Re: US Diplomat's wife kills biker in UK then flees country :(
It seems that this is being overlooked in the ITV report:-
a senior US embassy official told the Foreign Office that advance waivers at the base only applied to members of administrative and technical staff, and did not extend to their family members. The US said Mrs Sacoolas had diplomatic immunity.
The Foreign Office eventually accepted the US view that the Sacoolas family had immunity.
The Foreign Office eventually accepted the US view that the Sacoolas family had immunity.
The Foreign Office argues that no mention of spouses is made in the RAF Croughton agreement. It says under Article 32 of the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations any waiver of immunity from criminal prosecution must be made clear. It argues the absence of any reference to automatic waivers for spouses means Mrs Sacoolas had diplomatic immunity.
May 15th 2020, 12:06 am
#224
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 26,319
Re: US Diplomat's wife kills biker in UK then flees country :(
But this has the potential to destroy relations between the UK and the USA it really does. This isn't a german man beating his german wife and leaving the country this is US Citizen killing a citizen of A British Citizen and walking away. We could close the embassy over this. A braver leader might but Johnson won't. We could kick the yanks out of the UK bases. A braver leader might but we won't. The yanks haven't banned anyone from travelling to America over this yet. What if they do? How can we remain on the VWP after that? It would almost impossible.
The US would say that to protect their citizen, and the Foreign Office would have accepted that to avoid what is a minor incident in the grand scheme of the intelligence community (but major incident in the eye of the victim's family). The US was never seriously going to let her anywhere near a UK court, and there's no way she's ever going to be interviewed by UK Police outside the USA.
As far as the victim's family are concerned, justice delayed is justice denied, and that isn't going to change.
May 15th 2020, 2:32 am
#225
Listen to the Music
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: Fraser Valley BC
Posts: 4,729
Re: US Diplomat's wife kills biker in UK then flees country :(
No UK leader now or in the future will do anything about this. Why would the US close off their country to UK citizens even if we maintain the current stance with them over this incident?
It was a tragic accident and could have resulted in criminal charges had she remained in the UK. I sincerely doubt she meant to do it unless she was stupid enough to admit this during a police interview or in court.
Granted this is no comfort to the family etc but it is what it is.
I am pretty sure that most UK citizens would like her to face the music but it aint going to happen unless she returns to the UK.
It was a tragic accident and could have resulted in criminal charges had she remained in the UK. I sincerely doubt she meant to do it unless she was stupid enough to admit this during a police interview or in court.
Granted this is no comfort to the family etc but it is what it is.
I am pretty sure that most UK citizens would like her to face the music but it aint going to happen unless she returns to the UK.
I don't think that anyone considers that Mrs Sakoolas intended to kill Mr Dunn and the charge would have been Death by Careless Driving. https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk...erate-driving/ suggests that if convicted she would have faced "Maximum when tried summarily: Level 5 fine and/or 6 months....Maximum when tried on indictment: 5 years"
In cases like this I suspect that the powers that be on all sides would have quietly suggested that the more lenient senetence would have applied.
Mrs Sakoolas should have immediately admitted the offence, plead guilty, appologised profusely, regretted not thinking straight and paid the fine.
The magistrate would have emphasised the serious of the offence and gone on about how US personnel need to be made aware of driving standards etc etc but attennuated this by saying how sorry Mrs Sakoolas was and how a custodial sentence wasn't approriate etc etc.
Mr. Dunn's parents would have accepted the guilty plea, expressed anger over the lenient sentence but a line would have been drawn and the world would have moved on.
But... Somebody with shit for brains suggested she flee the country and we are where we are.
What a mess!