the Scottish independence issue
Jul 27th 2014, 10:54 am
#1471
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Re: the Scottish independence issue
i am tempted to vote Yes. why can't scotland run itself? maybe it's the Yank in me that thinks that why, but I don't see why it couldn't be successful long term. (besides, success waxes and wanes over time anyway)
i think what bothers me about the debate is that absolutely no one can guarantee anything, whether it be positive or negative. so the vote must be based on your fundamental political beliefs. do you want a gov in edinburgh, or london? are you willing to put the final nail in the coffin of the british empire?
also, voting for independence is NOT a vote for SNP policy. it is very difficult to see the forest through the trees on this since the two often get intertwined.
on a side note, texas wanting to break free is nothing at all like scotland wanting independence. texas is a state in a federalist system. it is not a country. however, scotland is a country which has been tied to others via treaty. totally different. i think of it would be more like western NY wanting to annex NYC, or more like a divorce.......one side is not feeling its needs are being met so it wants to leave. the other half is suddenly realising they actually mean it this time and are begging them to 'please, think of the children' and stay. too little too late perhaps?
i think what bothers me about the debate is that absolutely no one can guarantee anything, whether it be positive or negative. so the vote must be based on your fundamental political beliefs. do you want a gov in edinburgh, or london? are you willing to put the final nail in the coffin of the british empire?
also, voting for independence is NOT a vote for SNP policy. it is very difficult to see the forest through the trees on this since the two often get intertwined.
on a side note, texas wanting to break free is nothing at all like scotland wanting independence. texas is a state in a federalist system. it is not a country. however, scotland is a country which has been tied to others via treaty. totally different. i think of it would be more like western NY wanting to annex NYC, or more like a divorce.......one side is not feeling its needs are being met so it wants to leave. the other half is suddenly realising they actually mean it this time and are begging them to 'please, think of the children' and stay. too little too late perhaps?
Jul 27th 2014, 1:42 pm
#1472
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Location: North Norfolk and northern New York State
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Re: the Scottish independence issue
Remember that the established churches in Ireland and in Wales were disestablished way back in the nineteenth century. I was wondering if the Yes camp saw an established church with the Queen at its head as an unneeded remnant of the UK...
Jul 27th 2014, 1:52 pm
#1473
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Re: the Scottish independence issue
Texas was an independent country. Its legislature voted (I believe) to become a state in the US. So similar to the union between Scotland and England, except in so far as the fact that Texas became just one state among many....
Jul 27th 2014, 2:51 pm
#1474
Joined: Dec 2001
Location: Dixie, ex UK
Posts: 52,448
Re: the Scottish independence issue
Actually the two cases have interesting parallels. They are not totally different. First, note that Scotland is NOT tied to other countries via treaty. The parliaments of both countries passes Acts of Union. That means that Scotland and England/Wales became a united country with one parliament. For practical reasons, it was located in London, but it could have been located in Edinburgh or elsewhere.
Texas was an independent country. Its legislature voted (I believe) to become a state in the US. So similar to the union between Scotland and England, except in so far as the fact that Texas became just one state among many....
Texas was an independent country. Its legislature voted (I believe) to become a state in the US. So similar to the union between Scotland and England, except in so far as the fact that Texas became just one state among many....
Jul 27th 2014, 2:54 pm
#1475
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Jul 27th 2014, 2:56 pm
#1476
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Posts: 20
Re: the Scottish independence issue
But texas has been a state for 100+ years. Scotland is not a state in a federalist system. If it were, independence would probably never have come up. I get what you're saying up to a point, but it's like comparing tangelos to oranges
Jul 27th 2014, 3:05 pm
#1477
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Re: the Scottish independence issue
Hmm.. Not sure really. The United Kingdom has many attributes of a federation. Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland are essentially "states" - aren't they? Big difference is, they are not equal units with defined equal rights and powers in the same way as the constituent states in Canada, Switzerland, Australia (to cite some well known federal countries.)
Jul 27th 2014, 3:54 pm
#1478
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Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 20
Re: the Scottish independence issue
No, they are different countries but maybe not to some english people who think they are ststes within England. Hence the independence referendum!
Jul 27th 2014, 4:06 pm
#1480
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Posts: 2
Re: the Scottish independence issue
I would not put much money on that, too many WTF moments.
Jul 27th 2014, 4:24 pm
#1481
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Posts: 20
Re: the Scottish independence issue
Sorry pulaski, not a dig at the majority! But the are always a handful that ruin it for the rest. There are definitely those who say ' but we don't want to give Scotland their independence' or 'sure, we can give it to them if they want or 'how come Scotland can vote for their independence and we can't (in this referendum)'. It shows that they really don't understand the union and what is going on. Most do, but there are quite a few who don't. And that is obviously not limited to just English, but the media tends to interview them the most.
I have yet to see NI person get the 'man on the street' type of interview bbc, itv etc do from time to time. I think i saw one old welsh lady give her opinion. Once.
I have yet to see NI person get the 'man on the street' type of interview bbc, itv etc do from time to time. I think i saw one old welsh lady give her opinion. Once.
Last edited by smithy76; Jul 27th 2014 at 4:27 pm.
Jul 27th 2014, 4:25 pm
#1482
Just Joined
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 20
Re: the Scottish independence issue
Oh, and americans will never ever ever get it, on the whole of course
Jul 27th 2014, 5:39 pm
#1483
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Location: North Norfolk and northern New York State
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Re: the Scottish independence issue
Scotland and England were two independent states with histories going back a thousand or more years. Their parliaments freely decided in the early eighteenth century to unite and form the United Kingdom. These are facts, I don't think it's that difficult to grasp.
Jul 27th 2014, 5:42 pm
#1484
Account Closed
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 2
Re: the Scottish independence issue
Wales was independent.
We did not freely decide.
We did not freely decide.
Jul 27th 2014, 5:45 pm
#1485
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