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Old Jul 7th 2014 | 8:57 am
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Default Re: Minimum wage

Not sure about that, but I guess the biggest issue is that the current older generation are living off non replaceable accumulated wealth/borrowings which will diminish significantly over time.

So many Government programmes for example rely on the current tax payer coughing up for past liabilities and that only works if the wealth curve is going up.

The NHS is a classic example, but all Western Countries have this issue of unfunded liabilities. Some far worse than the UK.

Quite what happens when it all starts crashing is another issue.
 
Old Jul 7th 2014 | 8:59 am
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Default Re: Minimum wage

Originally Posted by civilservant
I agree with this - a society is built on the menial jobs. No one to stack selves, or hand you your McDonalds, or wait on your table etc.

I get this where I work - all the other departments, CNAs, Nurse and Doctors, all look down on my housekeepers and maintenance staff as not doing anything of value. As a result, they treat my staff like crap. Well if your floors were covered in blood, or poop, or you were hip deep in trash, you'd have trouble operating on patients wouldn't you?
Or those who look down on trash collectors picking up their weekly trash. Funny thing is many who look down on these kinds of jobs make the same or less then those they are looking down on, but they have a fancy sounding title so they think they are better.
 
Old Jul 7th 2014 | 8:59 am
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Default Re: Minimum wage

Originally Posted by Pulaski
I think you entirely missed my oblique reference to illegal immigration. I was sure that you'd have a comeback and criticism of my admittedly simplified analysis, but you appear to have got entirely the wrong end of the stick.
Apologies, I misread your post. But if supply and demand is the primary criteria for the cost of labor, then that also applies to low wage workers.
 
Old Jul 7th 2014 | 9:02 am
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Default Re: Minimum wage

Originally Posted by Jsmth321
Or those who look down on trash collectors picking up their weekly trash. Funny thing is many who look down on these kinds of jobs make the same or less then those they are looking down on, but they have a fancy sounding title so they think they are better.
Fancy titles are certainly booming.
 
Old Jul 7th 2014 | 9:03 am
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Default Re: Minimum wage

Originally Posted by Michael
If that was implemented in developed countries, I suspect there would also be a lot of $2 per day workers as businessmen cuts costs by finding the cheapest labor available. It would be the race to the bottom for many since someone will always do something cheaper than someone else if they are starving. Then shanty towns are created as that is all anyone can afford. All you have to do is look at Tijuana to see how well that system works.
It is being implemented, the first step was moving jobs abroad. It has picked up pace.

My first job I was dealing with a company that made clothes for M&S, at that time I think all the clothing was made in the UK, now none of it is.

I worked in the Insurance sector, that was one of the growth areas, but even before I left many of the back office functions that had been moved out of London were moved overseas.

They had Gladiator on the TV last night, you can only appease the mob for so long, you run out of bread.
 
Old Jul 7th 2014 | 9:06 am
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Default Re: Minimum wage

Originally Posted by Michael
Apologies, I misread your post. But if supply and demand is the primary criteria for the cost of labor, then that also applies to low wage workers.
Exactly, you can not outsource all jobs, which is why many support Immigration Reform.
 
Old Jul 7th 2014 | 9:13 am
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Default Re: Minimum wage

Originally Posted by Boiler
Exactly, you can not outsource all jobs, which is why many support Immigration Reform.
It's funny how those who claim to have the interests of the low paid at heart are often those who who are least willing to help cut the supply of cheap labour, which would push up the pay rates up for those on the lowest pay, and also help the unemployed.
 
Old Jul 7th 2014 | 9:17 am
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Default Re: Minimum wage

Originally Posted by Boiler
Not sure about that, but I guess the biggest issue is that the current older generation are living off non replaceable accumulated wealth/borrowings which will diminish significantly over time.

So many Government programmes for example rely on the current tax payer coughing up for past liabilities and that only works if the wealth curve is going up.

The NHS is a classic example, but all Western Countries have this issue of unfunded liabilities. Some far worse than the UK.

Quite what happens when it all starts crashing is another issue.
Although economists didn't expect for the vast increase in life expectancy, a second problem also occurred that they didn't expect which made the problem far worst.

Economists assumed that developed countries would grow at a specific real gdp rate and the projected growth rate was pretty accurate and what they expected was that the benefit from the gdp growth would be more evenly distributed which didn't occur. If the benefits from gdp growth had been more evenly distributed, the problems you described would be significantly reduced.
 
Old Jul 7th 2014 | 9:24 am
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Default Re: Minimum wage

Originally Posted by Pulaski
It's funny how those who claim to have the interests of the low paid at heart are often those who who are least willing to help cut the supply of cheap labour, which would push up the pay rates up for those on the lowest pay, and also help the unemployed.
Overall that's not true. In the 1980's, both the democrats and republicans supported an immigration reform bill that had a high F2 quota with strict sanctions against employers that hired undocumented workers. However the Chamber of Commerce, the farm lobby, the hospitality lobby, and the construction lobby all opposed the strict sanctions against employers and the republican party folded. Now the same republican party is complaining about a failed immigration law.

The democratic party wants to put in those strict sanctions in the current porposed bill. Illegal immigrants from poor countries will never stop crossing the border in masses without those strict sanctions in place. Also with an F2 visa, the worker can file grievances instead of just accepting the abuse that many employers hand out since they know they won't be reported.

Last edited by Michael; Jul 7th 2014 at 9:44 am.
 
Old Jul 7th 2014 | 9:40 am
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Default Re: Minimum wage

Originally Posted by Michael
Although economists didn't expect for the vast increase in life expectancy, a second problem also occurred that they didn't expect which made the problem far worst.

Economists assumed that developed countries would grow at a specific real gdp rate and the projected growth rate was pretty accurate and what they expected was that the benefit from the gdp growth would be more evenly distributed which didn't occur. If the benefits from gdp growth had been more evenly distributed, the problems you described would be significantly reduced.
I don't think that economists foresaw the massive inflows of cheap labour, both legal and otherwise, that have flooded into North America, the UK, and Western Europe, either. The effect of that flood of cheap labour on holding down pay rates was almost entirely felt by the lowest paid and unskilled workers.
 
Old Jul 7th 2014 | 9:48 am
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Default Re: Minimum wage

Originally Posted by Pulaski
I don't think that economists foresaw the massive inflows of cheap labour, both legal and otherwise, that have flooded into North America, the UK, and Western Europe, either. The effect of that flood of cheap labour on holding down pay rates was almost entirely felt by the lowest paid and unskilled workers.
I'll agree since construction used to be a good paying job in the 1960s and 1970s and people could actually make a living as a farm hand.
 
Old Jul 7th 2014 | 9:52 am
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Default Re: Minimum wage

Originally Posted by Michael
Although economists didn't expect for the vast increase in life expectancy, a second problem also occurred that they didn't expect which made the problem far worst.

Economists assumed that developed countries would grow at a specific real gdp rate and the projected growth rate was pretty accurate and what they expected was that the benefit from the gdp growth would be more evenly distributed which didn't occur. If the benefits from gdp growth had been more evenly distributed, the problems you described would be significantly reduced.
Mathematicians if they had been consulted would have mentioned that such a process was impossible.

I do not recollect any discussions of distribution but a Historian might mention that this had not previously occurred so why now?
 
Old Jul 7th 2014 | 9:53 am
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Default Re: Minimum wage

Originally Posted by Michael
I'll agree since construction used to be a good paying job in the 1960s and 1970s and people could actually make a living as a farm hand.
The corollary is that a strictly-enforced minimum wage would drastically cut down on illegal immigration.
 
Old Jul 7th 2014 | 9:58 am
  #104  
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Default Re: Minimum wage

Originally Posted by Sally Redux
The corollary is that a strictly-enforced minimum wage would drastically cut down on illegal immigration.
Not sure how that would make any difference.

Strictly enforced work places would but that is fanciful to say the least.
 
Old Jul 7th 2014 | 10:45 am
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Default Re: Minimum wage

Originally Posted by Sally Redux
The corollary is that a strictly-enforced minimum wage would drastically cut down on illegal immigration.
And conversely, strictly enforced immigration laws and border security would push up pay rates for low skill labour.

Also prosecuting employers and managers for hiring illegal immigrants would largely eliminate the demand for labour from illegal immigrants. You wouldn't have to lock up many managers, owners, and directors before the word would get around.

What's actually needed is all of the above.

Last edited by Pulaski; Jul 7th 2014 at 11:07 am.
 


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