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sid nv May 30th 2019 4:53 pm

Gizza Job
 
Hi y'all

This is about age discrimination in the workplace, and how the US compares with the UK. I am pretty sure that ageism is a thing in the UK, but I have an uninformed hope that ageism is less prevalent in the US. I have seen greeters in Walmart aged well over 100, so am pretty sure this is the case. I am about to undertake a personal experiment to see how US employers view the over-65's. I have now been out of work for nearly 6 weeks, and entering a period like Yosser Hughes running around and telling people "I can do that".

What surprised me is that unemployment benefit is available here. I had assumed that there is little in the way of welfare benefits in the US, it is work or die. But no, there is "unemployment insurance" and it can be quite generous.

I see FedEx are advertising for delivery drivers, and this seems to be a good way to get paid and keep fit at the same time. Although, I came across a UPS employee forum where there was a discussion over whether drivers should continue at 50+, and the consensus was that this is a bad idea due to physical problems with back, knees, etc, plus citing stress over keeping to tight delivery schedules. So still pondering this one.




Rete May 30th 2019 7:10 pm

Re: Gizza Job
 
Unemployment benefits are benefits derived from a type of insurance that was paid into by your employer and yourself. Not everyone is eligible for unemployment benefits. You need to have lost you employment due to a cause that was not a result of an indiscretion of yours, i.e. downsizing, layoff, etc. If you just up and leave your job because you are retiring or because you didn't like the job, you are not eligible for unemployment benefits.

Yes, there is a high prevalence of ageism in the US. While it might not be out and out obvious, the reason for rejection will be based on something other than your age so a lawsuit is not forthcoming.

As for older workers in Walmart, the pay is chit, the hours crappy, you stand on your feet the entire time, etc.

sid nv May 30th 2019 10:22 pm

Re: Gizza Job
 
So, my first job interview: work from home using own vehicle to make pharmaceutical deliveries. The lady I spoke to on the phone did not ask about my age, or ask about anything much at all. She described the job, and asked me to email 5 pictures of driving-related documents, including driver's license. I asked whether a background check would be needed in order to collect and transport drugs, but apparently not. I can't help but wonder if this is an elaborate scam designed to obtain driver's licenses. It looks like the company registered an LLC in CA in January this year, and have a minimal one-page website. The same advert was carried recently in several different states. Probably legit, but I think I will refrain from sending a picture of my driver's license for now.

I see quite a few jobs require drug/alcohol test. I'm blowed if I am going to give up having one or two beers of an evening. There has to be some point in life. As the Good Book says, "Man shall not live on beer alone, but he shall have a bloody good try".


caretaker May 30th 2019 10:30 pm

Re: Gizza Job
 

Originally Posted by sid nv (Post 12691427)
"Man shall not live on beer alone, but he shall have a bloody good try".

I thought you were going to say have a Bloody Mary there; I'm that impressionable.


sid nv May 30th 2019 11:56 pm

Re: Gizza Job
 

Originally Posted by caretaker (Post 12691432)
I thought you were going to say have a Bloody Mary there; I'm that impressionable.

Yeah, that works better. I think I'll go with "Man shall not live on beer alone, but he shall also have a margarita and a couple of glasses of chardonnay".

civilservant May 31st 2019 11:17 am

Re: Gizza Job
 
I've never seen a job require an alcohol test. It is, after all, legal. Even testing positive for opiates on a drug screen cannot be used in a hiring decision if you have a script for said opiates.

mikelincs May 31st 2019 3:18 pm

Re: Gizza Job
 

Originally Posted by civilservant (Post 12691585)
I've never seen a job require an alcohol test. It is, after all, legal. Even testing positive for opiates on a drug screen cannot be used in a hiring decision if you have a script for said opiates.

What is most likely in those cases is that the company use any sort of reason not to give the job, most drug tests are done PRIOR to interview, well at least they were when I was screening people for employment in a company that produced parts for the US automotive industry, it was part of the application requirement, they were also aske dto complete a florm that stated they they had had no contact with drugs, ans they were also told that this was part of the application, and they should list any drugs, prescribed or OTC they had taken in the last 7 days. W e still found positives, usually cannabis, but occasionally opiates.. These people just never made the interview list.

civilservant May 31st 2019 3:38 pm

Re: Gizza Job
 
I've been tested prior to interview. Prior to start date, yes, and the offer was of course conditional on passing all background checks.

Different states, different rules, like everything else in the US.

Anian May 31st 2019 4:15 pm

Re: Gizza Job
 
I'm guessing that as a driver, you will only be tested for alcohol immediately before your shift starts (and maybe in the middle if you crash). Alcohol leaves your system fairly quickly, so unless you had a big binge the night before, or you like Irish coffee for breakfast, you'll be okay.

Other drugs are somewhat less simple. Stay away from poppyseeds since it raises false positives for opiates, MJ hangs in the system for up to a month after the impairment wears off.

MidAtlantic May 31st 2019 5:45 pm

Re: Gizza Job
 

Originally Posted by Anian (Post 12691715)
I'm guessing that as a driver, you will only be tested for alcohol immediately before your shift starts (and maybe in the middle if you crash). Alcohol leaves your system fairly quickly, so unless you had a big binge the night before, or you like Irish coffee for breakfast, you'll be okay.

I would not call up to 24 hours "fairly quickly".

https://americanaddictioncenters.org...long-in-system

caretaker May 31st 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Gizza Job
 
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/british...034adc4d42.png

Anian May 31st 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Gizza Job
 

Originally Posted by MidAtlantic (Post 12691759)
I would not call up to 24 hours "fairly quickly".

https://americanaddictioncenters.org...long-in-system

The page you just linked to uses exactly that phrase.
"Since alcohol is metabolized fairly quickly, most clinicians rely on observations of alcohol use—such as slurred speech or the smell of alcohol—or a breathalyzer test to confirm intoxication or recent drinking."


MidAtlantic May 31st 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Gizza Job
 

Originally Posted by Anian (Post 12691774)
The page you just linked to uses exactly that phrase.
"Since alcohol is metabolized fairly quickly, most clinicians rely on observations of alcohol use—such as slurred speech or the smell of alcohol—or a breathalyzer test to confirm intoxication or recent drinking."

I know, and I was saying that I would not regard 24 hours as fairly quickly. Many people think they can drink in the evening and be fit to drive (or pilot planes!) the next morning. I once ran a large distribution business (in Europe) and drivers were warned not to drink within 24 hours of starting their shift.

Jsmth321 May 31st 2019 8:12 pm

Re: Gizza Job
 
The only places I ever had to do alcohol testing was in the airline industry along with drug testing. (although drug testing has been done everywhere I ever worked, including min wage retail jobs.)

Typically airlines will test during pre-employment, randomly during employment, and after any incident or accident regardless of how minor.

The airlines I have worked for alcohol use had to cease 12 hours prior to start of shift with 0 alcohol in system at work.

Was never tested before interview anywhere though, always interview, conditional offer based on passing background checks and drug/alcohol testing.

Everything non-transportation related was no drinking within 8 hours if following company policy.

sid nv Jun 1st 2019 5:40 pm

Re: Gizza Job
 
Seen in a recent job ad: "Dishwasher wanted - must have experience". I swear this is true. Seriously?

Home Depot are advertising several positions. I am keeping this in reserve for now. Years ago I applied to B&Q for a part-time evening shift. After successfully completing an online assessment/personality test, I went to interview. At the interview I was asked some odd questions, such as "What do you consider to be the greatest achievement in your life?" and "What do you consider to be the most abject failure in your deplorable life?". This was for a job stacking shelves. I gave what I thought were modest and reasonable answers. A few days later I received a letter advising that I was not being offered the position at this time. To this day I have no idea how I failed that interview.
Since B&Q and Home Depot are identical clones, I can no doubt expect an identical interview experience at Home Depot.

It is now the weekend, so despite every day being the same when out of work, no more looking at job listings until Monday.

civilservant Jun 1st 2019 7:27 pm

Re: Gizza Job
 
I had an interview for Home Depot when I first arrived in the US (6 years ago) - I can confirm that it is very similar to that described.

Jsmth321 Jun 1st 2019 7:35 pm

Re: Gizza Job
 
I worked for a major US retailer, our hiring was mostly automated with only the last stage the interview stage with a human.

Hiring manager say needed to hire 3 cashiers, would sign on, click the position hiring for, how many positions, times and dates of interviews and submit it, the system would email applicants it found as a good match for what the hiring manager was looking for, would email and schedule interviews.

caretaker Jun 1st 2019 9:19 pm

Re: Gizza Job
 
I remember filling out my application for the reserve army way back when. There were pages of questions, and some multiple choice... and there was a section where they showed a few pictures in each line, and you had to pick out the odd one. I wanted to get into the artillery because my friends were in the artillery, and there was one question that was a picture of 3 field guns. They were identical. I looked and looked, and finally decided on the one on the right because I thought if I picked the one in the middle I might be considered wishy-washy, and if I picked the one on the left I might be considered a communist. The one on the right might be considered right wing, but hey, I was applying for the artillery. I never found out what the test was all about and the artillery was great.

sid nv Jun 2nd 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Gizza Job
 
Timely article published today at Ars Technica on the topic of job scams. Seems that Google Hangouts is the preferred vehicle for this type of activity.
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019...ployment-scam/

Steerpike Jun 3rd 2019 9:39 am

Re: Gizza Job
 

Originally Posted by sid nv (Post 12691337)
Hi y'all

This is about age discrimination in the workplace, and how the US compares with the UK. I am pretty sure that ageism is a thing in the UK, but I have an uninformed hope that ageism is less prevalent in the US. I have seen greeters in Walmart aged well over 100, so am pretty sure this is the case. I am about to undertake a personal experiment to see how US employers view the over-65's. I have now been out of work for nearly 6 weeks, and entering a period like Yosser Hughes running around and telling people "I can do that".

What surprised me is that unemployment benefit is available here. I had assumed that there is little in the way of welfare benefits in the US, it is work or die. But no, there is "unemployment insurance" and it can be quite generous.

I see FedEx are advertising for delivery drivers, and this seems to be a good way to get paid and keep fit at the same time. Although, I came across a UPS employee forum where there was a discussion over whether drivers should continue at 50+, and the consensus was that this is a bad idea due to physical problems with back, knees, etc, plus citing stress over keeping to tight delivery schedules. So still pondering this one.

I've often thought about this, having given up full-time employment. I would have thought being a delivery driver for FedEx could be a good one, if you don't live in an area with terrible traffic. I would not expect the pay to be too great! You may get a bump on your auto insurance rates, though, if you declare it. And if you don't declare it, and have an accident while 'delivering', could find yourself in trouble.

What job did you do prior to retirement? Can't you take advantage of some connections in that area?

Nutmegger Jun 3rd 2019 2:47 pm

Re: Gizza Job
 

Originally Posted by Steerpike (Post 12692684)
I've often thought about this, having given up full-time employment. I would have thought being a delivery driver for FedEx could be a good one, if you don't live in an area with terrible traffic. I would not expect the pay to be too great! You may get a bump on your auto insurance rates, though, if you declare it. And if you don't declare it, and have an accident while 'delivering', could find yourself in trouble.

However it does seem that it might be quite strenuous -- in and out of the truck carrying boxes all day. I always thought that there must be a reason why my FedEx delivery people are a revolving cast of younger men. This isn't just a driving from A to B job.

sid nv Jun 3rd 2019 4:10 pm

Re: Gizza Job
 

Originally Posted by Steerpike (Post 12692684)
What job did you do prior to retirement?

Who said anything about retirement? That is exactly the sort of ageist stereotyping I am talking about !!


Jsmth321 Jun 3rd 2019 4:18 pm

Re: Gizza Job
 

Originally Posted by Nutmegger (Post 12692795)
However it does seem that it might be quite strenuous -- in and out of the truck carrying boxes all day. I always thought that there must be a reason why my FedEx delivery people are a revolving cast of younger men. This isn't just a driving from A to B job.

FedEx and UPS delivery jobs are very physical and can be exhausting, and days long.

Loading those trucks is also difficult work, I worked for a time at Fedex as a package handler loading the trucks in the morning, shift was 3am to7am but it was the hardest 4 hours you could imagine with only 1 15 minute break to use rest and use the restroom, packages came down non-stop until the end, and typically have 3-4 trucks each, and had to be not only fast, but also good at memorizing zip codes so you could easily spot your packages.

I wasn't fast enough so I got fired, but yeah hard hard job. Way easier to load airplanes vs fedex trucks...

Steerpike Jun 3rd 2019 11:53 pm

Re: Gizza Job
 

Originally Posted by Nutmegger (Post 12692795)
However it does seem that it might be quite strenuous -- in and out of the truck carrying boxes all day. I always thought that there must be a reason why my FedEx delivery people are a revolving cast of younger men. This isn't just a driving from A to B job.

What I've seen, recently, is that some packages have been delivered to me by a 'casually clothed' person in an unmarked car (eg, a Honda Civic). My assumption was, FedEx are supplementing their delivery workforce with casual folks; either for time-sensitive stuff, or just 'extra hands'. I've seen this in and around Scottsdale.

Update - actually, these were Amazon purchases - Amazon Prime. I can't say who the delivery organization was. Maybe this was Amazon doing their own deliveries; I believe they have a very significant operation in the Phoenix Metro.

Steerpike Jun 3rd 2019 11:59 pm

Re: Gizza Job
 

Originally Posted by sid nv (Post 12692831)
Who said anything about retirement? That is exactly the sort of ageist stereotyping I am talking about !!

Ah sorry, I thought I'd read in there somewhere that you were retired but I was wrong. I recall other threads from you recently discussing Medicare options (very helpful threads), and perhaps I just assumed you were retired. But speaking of 'ageist stereotyping', what is it about the word 'retirement' that bothers you? I quit work full-time at 55, and I generally refer to myself as 'retired', 'semi-retired', 'part-time', 'self-employed', as the mood takes me; I don't see anything negative about any of these terms - I see it as a very positive thing.

sid nv Jun 4th 2019 2:39 am

Re: Gizza Job
 

Originally Posted by Steerpike (Post 12693009)
Ah sorry, I thought I'd read in there somewhere that you were retired but I was wrong. I recall other threads from you recently discussing Medicare options (very helpful threads), and perhaps I just assumed you were retired. But speaking of 'ageist stereotyping', what is it about the word 'retirement' that bothers you? I quit work full-time at 55, and I generally refer to myself as 'retired', 'semi-retired', 'part-time', 'self-employed', as the mood takes me; I don't see anything negative about any of these terms - I see it as a very positive thing.

Don't worry, I am not offended by the 'retired' epithet - "Useless Old Fart" would be a better description. But it is interesting that you made the mental classification 'Retired', and I make it 'Currently out of work'. I think there is some stereotyping going on there. What matters is, do US employers think the same way?

Underlying this job search is a decision as to whether to move back to the UK or not. I could simply retire in the UK and make use of the "free" healthcare and drugs. My thinking is, if I can make enough from paid work to pay for healthcare for the 2 of us, then I prefer to stay in the US. That is why the question of ageism in the US comes up. I think there is a better chance of employment over-65 here. But when I think about it, this impression probably comes from seeing older workers in Walmart and Home Depot. I have no real evidence or experience of ageism in the US. Time will tell.

Steerpike Jun 4th 2019 10:20 am

Re: Gizza Job
 

Originally Posted by sid nv (Post 12693031)
Don't worry, I am not offended by the 'retired' epithet - "Useless Old Fart" would be a better description. But it is interesting that you made the mental classification 'Retired', and I make it 'Currently out of work'. I think there is some stereotyping going on there. What matters is, do US employers think the same way?

Underlying this job search is a decision as to whether to move back to the UK or not. I could simply retire in the UK and make use of the "free" healthcare and drugs. My thinking is, if I can make enough from paid work to pay for healthcare for the 2 of us, then I prefer to stay in the US. That is why the question of ageism in the US comes up. I think there is a better chance of employment over-65 here. But when I think about it, this impression probably comes from seeing older workers in Walmart and Home Depot. I have no real evidence or experience of ageism in the US. Time will tell.

So if I may re-phrase my earlier question, what skills / experience / employment background do you have from the past? I was just trying to see if there was something from your past history that might be useful in your future search. I've had a long history in IT, for example, and seem to keep myself nicely employed doing bits of consulting here and there. I keep in contact with all my old work contacts, and they are a wonderful source of referrals. I've found a bit of a niche recently helping really old people (80s) deal with computer issues ... it's been quite satisfying to help them do the basics.

sid nv Jun 4th 2019 7:00 pm

Re: Gizza Job
 
This looks promising . . .


Tasting Room Associate (Part-Time)

Bently Heritage LLC - Minden, NV

Education and/or Experience:
  • High school diploma or equivalent
  • Prior spirit knowledge is strongly encouraged, but not required, though an interest in learning about spirits is a must


Rete Jun 4th 2019 8:01 pm

Re: Gizza Job
 

Originally Posted by Nutmegger (Post 12692795)
However it does seem that it might be quite strenuous -- in and out of the truck carrying boxes all day. I always thought that there must be a reason why my FedEx delivery people are a revolving cast of younger men. This isn't just a driving from A to B job.

My cousin was an UPS driver and a dear friend was a home oil deliveryman. Both of them suffered with knee and back problems from years of lifting, carrying, bending, etc. One required knee surgery and the other just lived with a limp and pain.

Steerpike Jun 4th 2019 11:51 pm

Re: Gizza Job
 

Originally Posted by Nutmegger (Post 12692795)
However it does seem that it might be quite strenuous -- in and out of the truck carrying boxes all day. I always thought that there must be a reason why my FedEx delivery people are a revolving cast of younger men. This isn't just a driving from A to B job.


Originally Posted by Steerpike (Post 12693006)
What I've seen, recently, is that some packages have been delivered to me by a 'casually clothed' person in an unmarked car (eg, a Honda Civic). My assumption was, FedEx are supplementing their delivery workforce with casual folks; either for time-sensitive stuff, or just 'extra hands'. I've seen this in and around Scottsdale.

Update - actually, these were Amazon purchases - Amazon Prime. I can't say who the delivery organization was. Maybe this was Amazon doing their own deliveries; I believe they have a very significant operation in the Phoenix Metro.


Originally Posted by Rete (Post 12693366)
My cousin was an UPS driver and a dear friend was a home oil deliveryman. Both of them suffered with knee and back problems from years of lifting, carrying, bending, etc. One required knee surgery and the other just lived with a limp and pain.

OK, here's what I'm talking about ' Amazon Flex':

"To become a Flex driver for Amazon.com deliveries, you need to meet some basic requirements; a smartphone and a 4-door vehicle for starters. Amazon also runs a background check and asks you to watch a series of instructional videos that are always accessible on the app. Other than that, it’s pretty easy to join the program.

Once activated on Flex, you find work by checking on available “blocks” that Amazon offers, which frequently change and vary on time, pay, and pickup location."

One (young) man's story:
https://www.geekwire.com/2017/amazon...ckage-brigade/

Looks like you can control the amount of work you do.

sid nv Jun 6th 2019 7:17 pm

Re: Gizza Job
 

Originally Posted by Steerpike (Post 12693452)
OK, here's what I'm talking about ' Amazon Flex':

"To become a Flex driver for Amazon.com deliveries, you need to meet some basic requirements; a smartphone and a 4-door vehicle for starters. Amazon also runs a background check and asks you to watch a series of instructional videos that are always accessible on the app. Other than that, it’s pretty easy to join the program.

Once activated on Flex, you find work by checking on available “blocks” that Amazon offers, which frequently change and vary on time, pay, and pickup location."

One (young) man's story:
https://www.geekwire.com/2017/amazon...ckage-brigade/

Looks like you can control the amount of work you do.

Yes, I think this is where I am headed - the gig economy. Amazon Flex are not looking for drivers in this area, but I can register on a waiting list.
There is another company - Postmates - advertising a similar 'use your own car, choose your own hours' type job. I read the employee (if you can call them that) reviews, and there are a lot of comments on how the pay rate has diminished to the point where it hardly covers the cost of running a car. Still, I am already paying to run the car, so if I get bored enough I will give it a go.

Jsmth321 Jun 6th 2019 9:31 pm

Re: Gizza Job
 

Originally Posted by sid nv (Post 12694320)
Yes, I think this is where I am headed - the gig economy. Amazon Flex are not looking for drivers in this area, but I can register on a waiting list.
There is another company - Postmates - advertising a similar 'use your own car, choose your own hours' type job. I read the employee (if you can call them that) reviews, and there are a lot of comments on how the pay rate has diminished to the point where it hardly covers the cost of running a car. Still, I am already paying to run the car, so if I get bored enough I will give it a go.


I was looking into food delivery with various companies who have apps people order through, and talking to a few people I know who tried, after the cost of gas they made almost nothing, probably explains why so many people are riding bikes and delivering food.

Is Uber in your area? Or Lyft? Maybe those could be an option?


civilservant Jun 7th 2019 11:14 pm

Re: Gizza Job
 
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/07/b...gtype=Homepage

retzie Jun 8th 2019 6:11 am

Re: Gizza Job
 
Sid, do you have a Trader Joe's nearby? They always seem to have a big mix of ages (and aren't the benefits really good?).

carcajou Jun 8th 2019 11:41 am

Re: Gizza Job
 
Yes, many often qualify for unemployment benefits. The US is not the dystopia that "media reports" and Usual Suspect posters want you to believe.

However, you will find ageism. It is very difficult to get a new job after you turn 50. So I would be surprised if you find anything for over 65's that isn't culturally stereotyped for retirees - such as Wal-Mart greeter. This can make things very difficult for people who get laid off in their late 50s for example, and many find they have to retire early and take penalties on their retirement accounts.

The other prejudice you will notice is for the long-term unemployed. HR critters really don't like applicants who have been out of work for more than a few weeks and will quietly use that to bin otherwise fine CVs. So that becomes more of a barrier.

Sugarmooma Jun 8th 2019 3:54 pm

Re: Gizza Job
 
Check your local county library departments. A lot of times they need drivers to deliver books from one library to another. Or they need "shelvers for when books are returned.

While you are looking also check the local courthouses. Again they often need part time drivers to deliver paperwork etc from court to court. In this area it is all controlled by the County Clerks office so that might be a good starting point. They always need temporary help with elections and also soon it will be census time, another job opportunity.

sid nv Jun 8th 2019 5:52 pm

Re: Gizza Job
 

Originally Posted by civilservant (Post 12695035)


A third applicant was told, “We are not looking for old white guys.”
Tut. Racism and sexism added to ageism. I guess you are not responsible for selecting US Presidential candidates, then.
Actually, I would prefer this type of frank and honest response, rather than faffing about pretending to conduct an interview that both of us know is going nowhere.


thinbrit Jun 8th 2019 11:21 pm

Re: Gizza Job
 

Originally Posted by sid nv (Post 12693031)
What matters is, do US employers think the same way?

Ironic that you complained of stereotyping, and then lumped "US employers" in to one big bucket ;)

As a small business owner (45 employees) I can categorically tell you that all US employers do not think the same way. We are as diverse as employees. Personally, my hiring practices do not factor in age at all - the ability to do the job well is all that matters. I'm sure some employers do surreptitiously use age in their hiring decisions, some use race, gender, sexual orientation and a whole number of protected classes to illegally make hiring decisions. These are not employers you would want to work for anyway.

It may be a little difficult, impossible, to get any meaningful answers in your quest to explore age discrimination in the workplace with a sample size of just one job candidates quest for employment.

jeepster Jun 9th 2019 5:12 am

Re: Gizza Job
 

Originally Posted by sid nv (Post 12693031)
Don't worry, I am not offended by the 'retired' epithet - "Useless Old Fart" would be a better description. But it is interesting that you made the mental classification 'Retired', and I make it 'Currently out of work'. I think there is some stereotyping going on there. What matters is, do US employers think the same way?

Underlying this job search is a decision as to whether to move back to the UK or not. I could simply retire in the UK and make use of the "free" healthcare and drugs. My thinking is, if I can make enough from paid work to pay for healthcare for the 2 of us, then I prefer to stay in the US. That is why the question of ageism in the US comes up. I think there is a better chance of employment over-65 here. But when I think about it, this impression probably comes from seeing older workers in Walmart and Home Depot. I have no real evidence or experience of ageism in the US. Time will tell.

USPS has been advertising like crazy for Postal employees. They got a crackerjack healthcare program (Mailhandlers) and being government they shouldn't discriminate...and you get all that excercise walking from residence to residence delivering the mail. Should get you in shape.

vespucci Jun 9th 2019 7:05 am

Re: Gizza Job
 

Originally Posted by jeepster (Post 12695476)
USPS has been advertising like crazy for Postal employees. They got a crackerjack healthcare program (Mailhandlers) and being government they shouldn't discriminate...and you get all that excercise walking from residence to residence delivering the mail. Should get you in shape.

I've never seen them leave their car. Must be different in your area.


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