Dunkirk movie
#76
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I had not heard about looting dead bodies but not surprised it happened and the consequences.
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There are miserable cretins in every society. In this case they were French. Normandy was a combat zone. I can fairly imagine the emotions that must pass through a soldier after a battle when he sees people moving among the bodies of his buddies removing personal valuables and even stripping the bodies of clothing. Disgusting. Those vultures had no awareness or just didn't care that these young men who had given their lives had come to liberate them and paid in full for it.
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Other forms of collaboration included French women sleeping with German troops. Those women had their hair shorn in public after the liberation. They were regarded as collaborators since no French female of any age was obliged or forced to sleep with a German.
Obeying a command to "stand over there" is certainly not by any stretch of the imagination "collaborating" in any sense of the word
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Collaborating means willingly and voluntarily offering your services to the enemy. A typical collaborator would volunteer to spy on his/her neighbors, report adverse remarks, turn in any person who he or she suspected of hiding a downed Allied airman or a Jew or a member of Le Resistence.
Other forms of collaboration included French women sleeping with German troops. Those women had their hair shorn in public after the liberation. They were regarded as collaborators since no French female of any age was obliged or forced to sleep with a German.
Obeying a command to "stand over there" is certainly not by any stretch of the imagination "collaborating" in any sense of the word
Other forms of collaboration included French women sleeping with German troops. Those women had their hair shorn in public after the liberation. They were regarded as collaborators since no French female of any age was obliged or forced to sleep with a German.
Obeying a command to "stand over there" is certainly not by any stretch of the imagination "collaborating" in any sense of the word
And there is the question of why they collaborated- I would hazard a guess that generally the forms of collaboration you mention were specifically because of threats or potential consequences, as opposed to ideological support of the occupiers though that did occur.
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The Germans would have had a hard time administering France without various levels of collaboration. The French police, railway workers, government bureaucrats, and so forth all collaborated in some form or another. Under the conditions of occupation the French were faced with a difficult situation and ultimately cooperating or collaboration however one defines it a means of self-preservation.
And there is the question of why they collaborated- I would hazard a guess that generally the forms of collaboration you mention were specifically because of threats or potential consequences, as opposed to ideological support of the occupiers though that did occur.
And there is the question of why they collaborated- I would hazard a guess that generally the forms of collaboration you mention were specifically because of threats or potential consequences, as opposed to ideological support of the occupiers though that did occur.
That's different from the French civilian who sympathized with the Nazis and offered his or her services to the Gestapo. There was a group of French volunteers called the Milice. They wore black Nazi style uniforms and actively participated in the rounding up of Jews and any others on the Nazi wanted list. Some volunteered for service with the S.S as did others in the in the rest of the occupied countries. These are what I call collaborators in the real sense of the word
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The French railway SNCF were finally brought to justice in about 2005 after their complicity in transporting people to death camps was proven.
Where I lived there was a village not so far away which was burned down and everyone in it was killed by the Germans for harbouring Jews/Resistance. I would think that most of us would have done whatever we could to help those in need but also I don't blame anyone for wanting to survive.
Where I lived there was a village not so far away which was burned down and everyone in it was killed by the Germans for harbouring Jews/Resistance. I would think that most of us would have done whatever we could to help those in need but also I don't blame anyone for wanting to survive.
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I shall be boycotting this movie in support of the French . Who else is with me.
Dunkirk: French critic accuses film of being 'witheringly impolite' by underplaying French involvement in the evacuation | The Independent
Dunkirk: French critic accuses film of being 'witheringly impolite' by underplaying French involvement in the evacuation | The Independent
And the British were able to hold Dunkirk and the port long enough for the greater part of their troops to embark, largely thanks to the gallant stand made by the French, who fought us to the finish there.
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Not my experience of talking to french people either - if you could get anyone to talk about it in the first place. Most of the people that I talked to would have been children during the war and all they say is that they were terrified and starving. My husband's great uncle was a 12 yr old near Lyon, he is tiny and says that he and his friends just did not get enough to eat.
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John Nettles on Channel Islander's collaboration -
Nettles says: "It was believed that by and large the German invaders behaved reasonably well and kept within the terms of the Geneva Convention.For their part the islanders responded by offering no resistance to their masters and only co-operating not collaborating with them, according to that same Convention. It was certainly uncomfortable but not horrendous. Unpleasant but not unendurable."
The truth, he asserts, is rather different. "It is more morally complex, ambiguous and difficult. It is the story of a sustained and wholesale attack on human values, of great suffering, venality and violence."
Curfews were imposed, identity cards were issued and food shortages threatened the islanders with starvation. Radios were forbidden so islanders were utterly isolated, only hearing about the progress of the war as it was filtered through Nazi propaganda.
How the island leaders reacted to Nazi rule is one of the highly sensitive topics surrounding these years and some details are damning.
Nettles notes how the Dame of Sark, Sybil Hathaway, invited the invading German officers round for a lobster dinner. In the immediate aftermath of the war when the British government investigated all claims of collaboration with the Nazis in the Channel Islands, they immediately pointed to this as evidence of fraternisation, of collaboration.
Similarly in Guernsey, where Victor Carey was bailiff, the British government didn't know "whether to hang him or knight him so mired in controversy was his tenure of office".
Nettles mounts a robust defence of many of the island rulers arguing that they offered "wise and resourceful leadership" in an unprecedented situation. "As one of the Guernsey politicians said, 'The Germans always had the gun. We could do nothing but obey. Otherwise we would be dead.'"
Island leaders tried to act as a buffer between the Germans and the islanders and called for little resistance towards the invaders because, defenceless as they were, they feared swingeing reprisals.
However, the fact the administrators often did the Germans' bidding - dutifully drawing up lists of the places of birth of all residents, for example - had tragically fatal consequences.
Although the island leaders did not know why the lists were required they ultimately allowed the Germans to round up thousands of people who they then sent to concentration and death camps. It also allowed the Nazis to identify Jewish residents.
"The Jewish question in the Channel Islands is one of the most difficult to address," says Nettles. "People are deeply, deeply hurt by accusations that they are anti-Semitic, or that they were too much inclined to load the Jews on to the transporters.
"Their defence is, 'We didn't know what was going to happen to them' but there seems to be a lack of awareness that the Jews were a special case in the Nazi ideology.
They were there to be killed and they were deserving, therefore, of the protection of the civil authorities."
This is something they did not receive.
The truth, he asserts, is rather different. "It is more morally complex, ambiguous and difficult. It is the story of a sustained and wholesale attack on human values, of great suffering, venality and violence."
Curfews were imposed, identity cards were issued and food shortages threatened the islanders with starvation. Radios were forbidden so islanders were utterly isolated, only hearing about the progress of the war as it was filtered through Nazi propaganda.
How the island leaders reacted to Nazi rule is one of the highly sensitive topics surrounding these years and some details are damning.
Nettles notes how the Dame of Sark, Sybil Hathaway, invited the invading German officers round for a lobster dinner. In the immediate aftermath of the war when the British government investigated all claims of collaboration with the Nazis in the Channel Islands, they immediately pointed to this as evidence of fraternisation, of collaboration.
Similarly in Guernsey, where Victor Carey was bailiff, the British government didn't know "whether to hang him or knight him so mired in controversy was his tenure of office".
Nettles mounts a robust defence of many of the island rulers arguing that they offered "wise and resourceful leadership" in an unprecedented situation. "As one of the Guernsey politicians said, 'The Germans always had the gun. We could do nothing but obey. Otherwise we would be dead.'"
Island leaders tried to act as a buffer between the Germans and the islanders and called for little resistance towards the invaders because, defenceless as they were, they feared swingeing reprisals.
However, the fact the administrators often did the Germans' bidding - dutifully drawing up lists of the places of birth of all residents, for example - had tragically fatal consequences.
Although the island leaders did not know why the lists were required they ultimately allowed the Germans to round up thousands of people who they then sent to concentration and death camps. It also allowed the Nazis to identify Jewish residents.
"The Jewish question in the Channel Islands is one of the most difficult to address," says Nettles. "People are deeply, deeply hurt by accusations that they are anti-Semitic, or that they were too much inclined to load the Jews on to the transporters.
"Their defence is, 'We didn't know what was going to happen to them' but there seems to be a lack of awareness that the Jews were a special case in the Nazi ideology.
They were there to be killed and they were deserving, therefore, of the protection of the civil authorities."
This is something they did not receive.
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There are miserable cretins in every society. In this case they were French. Normandy was a combat zone. I can fairly imagine the emotions that must pass through a soldier after a battle when he sees people moving among the bodies of his buddies removing personal valuables and even stripping the bodies of clothing. Disgusting. Those vultures had no awareness or just didn't care that these young men who had given their lives had come to liberate them and paid in full for it.
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"Frenchmen"?? there were not many left alone to live comfortably in France.
Not my experience of talking to french people either - if you could get anyone to talk about it in the first place. Most of the people that I talked to would have been children during the war and all they say is that they were terrified and starving. My husband's great uncle was a 12 yr old near Lyon, he is tiny and says that he and his friends just did not get enough to eat.
Not my experience of talking to french people either - if you could get anyone to talk about it in the first place. Most of the people that I talked to would have been children during the war and all they say is that they were terrified and starving. My husband's great uncle was a 12 yr old near Lyon, he is tiny and says that he and his friends just did not get enough to eat.
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#88
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I had an older cousin that was taken prisoner at Calais and spent the whole of the war as a PoW. He said they were trying to make a raft to get back, when a German officer said in perfect English, "you won't be needing that"
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If I were freezing and there was a clothing shortage, would it not be reasonable for me to take clothing from a dead body so as to keep warm?
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Would they have been freezing in June? Ummm... I think not.
Last edited by dc koop; Jul 25th 2017 at 11:45 am.
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