British Expats - 2016 Election

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Re: 2016 Election

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlaviusAetius (Post 11755409)

In his book, "Decision Points," p. 390, Bush states that the withdrawal of forces by the end of 2011 was not arbitrary. "The agreement had been negotiated between two sovereign governments...[I]f conditions changed and Iraqis requested a continued American presence we could amend the SOFA and keep troops in the country."

And the Iraqis didn't request it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlaviusAetius (Post 11755409)

In October 2011, American officials pressed Iraqi leadership to meet again at President Talabaniâ€™s compound to discuss the issue. This time the U.S. asked Iraq to take a stand on the question of immunity for troops, hoping to remove what had always been the biggest challenge. However, they misread Iraqi politics and the Iraqi public. Having watched the Arab Spring sweep across the region and still haunted by the traumas of this and previous wars, the Iraqis were unwilling to accept anything that infringed on their sovereignty.

Iraqi leadership picked up on that sentiment quickly. As a result, they publicly said they would not support legal immunity for any American troops. Some American officials have privately said that pushing for that meeting â€” in essence forcing the Iraqis to take a public stand on such a controversial matter before working out the politics of presenting it to their constituents and to Parliament â€” was a severe tactical mistake that ended any possibility of keeping American troops past December 2011."

Maybe conditions had so changed from when Bush's people negotiated the original SOFA, or the new Administration was simply incompetent, that no new or amended SOFA could be agreed. Bottom line, the consequences of our not having a presence in Iraq led to the explosive growth of ISIS and extend from Iraq to Syria to Europe.

I would have thought that the pertinent statement in the above is:

Quote:

Having watched the Arab Spring sweep across the region and still haunted by the traumas of this and previous wars, the Iraqis were unwilling to accept anything that infringed on their sovereignty.

So other than effectively re-invading a sovereign country, the US had no option but to leave given its refusal to remove immunity from prosecution for US soldiers. Maybe if the US had actually planned its occupation and also not killed so many Iraqi civilians, things could have been different and we wouldn't be in the position we currently are:

"Rewriting History: Conservatives Attack Obama For Withdrawing All Troops From Iraq"

Quote:

But talks ran aground over Iraqi opposition to giving American troops legal immunity that would shield them from Iraqi prosecution. Legal protection for U.S. troops has always angered everyday Iraqis who saw it as simply a way for the Americans to run roughshod over the country.

http://mediamatters.org/research/201...bama-fo/200380

And who can blame "everyday Iraqis" from feeling that way when things like this happened:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Gh...prisoner_abuse

Re: 2016 Election

Bush broke Humpty Dumpty. The notion that Obama's or any other administration could have put Humpty Dumpty back together again is laughable.

Re: 2016 Election

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoadWarriorFromLP (Post 11755434)

Bush broke Humpty Dumpty. The notion that Obama's or any other administration could have put Humpty Dumpty back together again is laughable.

What was Humpty Dumpty in Iraq before Bush? Saddam's dictatorship?

At great cost in blood and treasure we freed them from one of the most gruesome dictatorships in modern history. They have almost completely thrown it away to pursue their interminable sectarian warfare and dreams of establishing a world caliphate. If it were possible to hermetically seal them all off from the rest of the world, would any of the rest of us give one flying f@@k about them?

Re: 2016 Election

Bush 43 created a power vacuum in Iraq that had led to a civil war, killed tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians, and spawned Al Qaeda in Iraq and ISIS. Only a buffoon would be proud of those "accomplishments."

Re: 2016 Election

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlaviusAetius (Post 11755464)

At great cost in blood and treasure we freed them from one of the most gruesome dictatorships in modern history.

Wait, I thought the pretext for the Iraq invasion was "weapons of mass destruction" (tm). :confused:

Re: 2016 Election

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steerpike (Post 11755315)

Christie could definitely get my support, at least on some topics, if he wouldn't get so worked up about marijuana ... I can't see that as a big vote getter so why does he make such a big deal about it ... I suppose it gives him something to differentiate himself on. But even he paid at least lip service to the need to reduce the penalties on first offenders.

I see Christie as a very "law and order" type of candidate. He was a US prosecutor, appointed by GWB, and he's very comfortable in that space. His pro NSA position evinces those tendencies. Same for his anti-pot legalization stance. Interestingly, a lot of these law enforcement guys see the folly in the ridiculous incarceration rates for non-violent offenses ... because they've witnessed the failure of those policies first hand.

Quote:

Even the 'vaccination' topic wasn't as bad as I expected ... it seems like the only issue 'The Donald' raised was the need to have lower doses spread out over greater time for some vaccines.

Oh, I thought it was terrible, just awful. Trump gave an "example" of some beautiful perfect child being afflicted with Autism after receiving his vaccines. I found the fact that the two doctors didn't laugh Trump off the stage to be extremely depressing. That nonsense about them being against the "bunching up" of the vaccinations was complete bullshit. No physicians actually feel that way, it was cowardly pandering at its very worst. They were throwing a bone to the anti-vaccine lunatics --- which is craven, dangerous and stupid. IMO, they were just lying. Just like Carly Fiorina lied about the Planned Parenthood tapes. My question to them is ... If your position is so great, why do you have to exaggerate and lie about it?

Re: 2016 Election

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giantaxe (Post 11755551)

Wait, I thought the pretext for the Iraq invasion was "weapons of mass destruction" (tm). :confused:

Not defending why we went in - just pointing out that we did get rid of Saddam for them.

Apparently the bastards didn't appreciate it. With an attitude like that, we should have left them in the hands of a guy whose Mukhabarat is supposed to have fed regime opponents live into wood chipping machines. At least he kept order. Since ISIS would have been considered a threat to his regime he would have massacred them and saved us all a lot of trouble.

Re: 2016 Election

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlaviusAetius (Post 11755591)

:amen:

Re: 2016 Election

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlaviusAetius (Post 11755591)

Yeh, those bastards. They really should appreciate the US killing more than a hundred thousand Iraqi civilians.

http://images.tcj.com/2012/07/Abu-Ghraib.jpg

Re: 2016 Election

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlaviusAetius (Post 11755591)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boiler (Post 11755592)

:amen:

Riiiiight. So, North Korea next?

Re: 2016 Election

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leslie (Post 11755598)

Riiiiight. So, North Korea next?

Hope not. Maybe we learned lessons in Iraq and Vietnam. Of course, if the Norks hit us with their nukes, we should know what to do. I think their next gen missiles might be able to reach San Fran...it would be interesting to see what the libs would do if they took out the city.

Re: 2016 Election

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giantaxe (Post 11755595)

Yeh, those bastards. They really should appreciate the US killing more than a hundred thousand Iraqi civilians.

http://images.tcj.com/2012/07/Abu-Ghraib.jpg

Ermm ... that dog won't hunt.

Re: 2016 Election

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boiler (Post 11755603)

Blame Bush?

Certainly can't credit Bush.

Re: 2016 Election