scampicat

Right this is my take on it (it is supported by various Christian schools of thought).

Job, Noah, Abraham et al, will be in the position of others who do not have a chance to accept Jesus as Lord (maybe because they have never heard of him - such as someone in an Amazonian tribe, are too young, born at the wrong time, whatever) - they will be judged according to the light that they were given. In other words, if they acted in a righteous manner in accordance with their knowledge and conscience as much as they were able. I believe in a fair and just God and so I trust him to deal with them in a fair and just manner.

As regards hell being 'God's torture chamber', I'm not at all sure about that.
Several people in this thread have said they just want to be 'left alone' when it comes to religious matters. Well if that's what you want, that's what God will do. If you wish to spend eternity without him, that is your choice. I personally don't know what eternity without God is like, only God knows. But I'm not at all sure about the torture chamber. There are various schools of thought about what hell is, that is only one of them. Some authorities just think it is the world of the dead, which I presume means oblivion.

I think everyone who knows about Jesus has the chance to accept or reject him. I believe that God speaks to us in language we can understand (I know he did to me when I was struggling at the beginning of my search). If you genuinely seek, he will speak.

Does this come any way towards making the elephant slightly smaller?

anonimouse

Always had an interest in religion, in a way I envy those that have faith and really believe they are watched over constantly and will end up in some paradise at the end of their days on earth, it must be reassuring for them, all I have to look forward to is lights out.

Truth is though all we have are some (IMO) far fetched stories that amazingly so many people believe in.

Nothing against these folk but I myself like to see some evidence on things that don't add up, these believers have no evidence, they seem only to believe unquestionably what they are told. I too was told all these things but had my own thoughts.

I see too much bad on earth to believe their is such a great power that is never able to stop tragedies despite always being with us.

I would love to be converted

bil

It helps, but you are one of the very few that has ever said that. The general view that everyone, but everyone (christian) says is that everyone pre Jesus, no matter how good, is off to hell.

Personally I cannot understand how anyone who possessed a scrap of empathy could accept the idea of hell.

What's your take on the loving your neighbour bit?

bil

Well, if you look at the near death experiences, and if what some of the more credible mediums say is true, then the only way to explain it is that there is no hell, there is only somewhere else and we all get to go there.

That is, IMO, a far nicer plan.

bil

Well, I would dispute that any of it is none of our business. I consider it's all our business. We have an enquiring mind and the ability to reason.

I strongly resent the dea of some paternalistic being lording it over me, and I completely abhor the expression 'There are some things we are not meant to know!' As if.

anonimouse

Problem is, I think these are just like dreams.

It's very difficult because if your own mind tells you something is real you really do believe it.

bil

I used to think they were the hallucinations of a dying brain.

The reason I stopped was when I read that people born blind (who therefore can't hallucinate visually) also have identical visual near death experiences.

Allegedly, Jewish and Arabic NDEs are identical which is even more interesting.

One NDE was a woman who said she met god, or at least a being of enormous knowledge and wisdom, which for want of a better word, we'll call god. (Or a god).

She went up to it and started apologising for all the things she had done. It apparantly seemed genuinely amused that she would think that it might care about what she had done.

Now that's the kind of god I could tolerate.

steviedeluxe

I can't remember a time before I was born (in fact anything before 7 years of age is very hazy now), so logically I suspect death will mean oblivion.
Emotionally I, like many others, hope there is something better to come. This is possibly why religion makes so many converts. Plus "there are no atheists in the trenches"..
I do try to help others when I can, partly because I feel better for doing it, partly because it may be something in my favour if such a thing as giving an account of yourself at the Pearly Gates really exists.
I can't explain how the universe has been created from nothing (in fact it makes my head explode when I think about it). Mainly for this reason I keep an open mind on the chances of a creator. The maxim "treat others as you would like to be treated" is perhaps the best way to live your life though, and I would argue you don't need to be a believer to follow this path.

bil

There are some athiests in trenches. God would have to be pretty dumb to put to one side a dissolute and non christian life, if at the last minute you shit yourself with terror and decided to believe as the bombs fell all around.

Me, I intend to go out just as I am. To be anything else would be hypocritical beyond belief. I shall just have to hope that if there is a judgemental god, he has a soft spot for chutzpah.

anonimouse

Exactly, No one can for sure, except of course those with a strong faith

steviedeluxe

Of course it would be nonsensical to follow the rules of a religion, just in case it happened to be the "true faith". How could you choose? Perhaps you'd need to be very defensive, and go to Mosque on Friday, Synagogue on Saturday, and church on Sunday. Maybe that's why they have their holy sabbath day on different days?

bil

I think it's fun to consider whether there is a god that creates the universe, or is it that any god or gods are the creations of the universe?

I like the idea that we are, essentially a soliton, a standing wave of energy that is housed in a meat envelope. When the envelope dies, we move on to the next level as it were.

No need for prayers, gods or anything. Everything living has a soul, even bacteria, and possibly all those small 'souls' get bored, and fuse together to create something bigger and better. Maybe god is just fused bacteria?

It's a nicer idea than god as a power crazed, jealous psycopath.

anonimouse

I tend to like the idea of the Annunaki visiting in ancient times and being thought of as Gods, and showing us their building skills, being they have found some weird and wonderful cave paintings from 1000's of years ago of large beings with flying chariots of fire and other interesting stuff, at least it is more evidence than the God that everybody rants about.

In fact some say they did create us as it was impossible to create the third gene if we came from apes, and it had to be, cloned

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hI2sX...eature=related

I don't doubt that Jesus existed, I reckon he was just a fantastic and powerful preacher and perhaps did a little magic too way ahead of his time.

bil

The whole point is that we don't need some supernatural beings coming an doing crap like that.

We didn't come from Apes. We share a similar ancestor. That bit about creating a third gene? What the heck does that mean?

All that 'Chariots of fire' stuff was all lies, cooked up by von Daniken and his ilk to con money out of gullible people.

As for Jesus. Well, sorry to disillusion you but I doubt that he was anything other than a marketing creation designed to front a religion that was handing serious power to a group of calculating people.

Odd, isn't it that there is no contempory reference to him anywhere? Here's a guy that walks on water, turns water into wine, raises the dead, and yet, and yet, no-one anywhere at the time thought his amazing doings were worth getting out pen and paper and committing it to posterity?

anonimouse

Zecharia Sitchin seemed able to read the Sumerian writings, and he made quite a few interesting books on the subject.

Genes and stuff, don't ask me, far too much for me to remember or take in, any body with any interest should do a google and see for them selves.

All I am saying is I rather like this idea