Go on then, give your prediction for the fall or rise in numbers of passengers for the AVE for 2013 and 2014!

I predict a rise of at least 15% in 2013, and the same again in 2014.

Prove me wrong (or give a counter-prediction) !! Tide is turning!

(and btw you are forgetting all the foreign contracts, including the 8 billion Saudi deal - do I need to repeat them yet again )

No wonder you're confused. Both Germany and France have invested in fast train networks. And parts of the US will be building fast rail links soon (the legal objection to it on California was overturned).

So, which are the "failing sections of the Ave"? Sorry I haven't read the whole thread. It's got a bit too 'snippy'. does anyone have the real figures on when each section was built and how many have used them since year by year?

"Para que una línea de AVE financie como mínimo los costes de mantenimiento debe pasar de los seis millones de pasajeros. Madrid-Barcelona suma cinco y Madrid-Sevilla apenas pasa de los tres."
Does this mean that there are 5 million using the Ave and they need 6? or that they need 6 million for each section which would clearly be rubbish. This piece of writing is badly put together. Even if it means each section needs 6 million users I think you'll find that by this time next year the oldest sections will be coming close to, if not passing these figures. I don't for one moment think I'm unique in using the Ave twice as often this year as last! And as for the maintenance costs. Most of these are not materials but JOBS!
Oh and Germany may have rejected a high speed train project but this is because you can already get around Germany very easily and quickly by train. I know because I do. There is little point in building a slightly quicker system when you have a recession and already have very efficient systems. But there is every point in building the best your technology will allow when you don't already have an efficient system. Thus future-proofing for a few decades.

Yes I thought that too

That the Madrid Barcelona lines and Madrid Seville lines are so close to breaking even already is incredible - and proves how useful the lines are. In 5 or 10 years time I have no doubt that they will be

I agree that some of the stupid little lines should never had happened, but that doesnt meant that the AVE isnt a good idea and an exceptional project. I am looking forward to Oviedo-Malaga in 5 hours in a few years time!

All of them, they all lose money, it's simply a question of how much.

It took 20 years for Eurotunnel to break even on an annual basis - and they had to write off billions, but that doesnt mean the project shouldnt have taken place

If only projects that produced an immediate profit were ever carried out, then we would live in a very superficial world

However, Spain hasnt helped itself by commissioning some purely vanity projects, but the main AVE lines have nothing to do with them

For starters I could mention the Albacete,Cuenca,Toledo service which normally attracted between 7 and 10 passengers a day before being closed down !!!

A catastrophic failure by any standards bearing in mind the astronomical costs involved.


As Stevie seems reluctant to talk about costs, the complete system was already estimated to have run up a bill of at least 60 billion euros in investment costs over a year ago.
Much of it our own money as EU taxpayers

On top of that there are the regular operating costs which were still not being covered by daily income at the last count, leaving the other 60 billion plus (YES, SIXTY BILLION) in all probability to be completely lost or written off, even if it ever gets anywhere close to breaking even on daily operating costs, and even that seems unlikely as running costs continue to increase.

As per usual our Stevie has been very economical with the truth, to put it very mildly, so I respectfully suggest considering the fuller picture and the astronomical costs and losses inevitably involved before passing judgement.


Yet they are closing vital local services down because some stations or stops occasionally only add 5 passengers to those already on the train whilst the initial cost of these older systems has long ago either been written off or paid for, rather than having a 60 billion price tag hanging around their necks as with AVE.

have no idea of the (actual) cost of the section to Granada - its still being built, but they have built some really fantastic bridges over to replace road crossings to service hamlets of 12 or so people or a factory that may close down any minute.

Also the Granada metro is about 3 years behind schedule - the BH moved out of the first flat solely because of the dust and thumping outside on the Camino de Ronda which is still going on.
the section outside the law courts has been a mess since we moved out here almost 4 years ago and no visible reason for it as it is on the surface.

but its EU Infrastructure money so thats alright

`

Ahh I didn't realise that your 'axe to grind' was so personal. Yes I'm sure that a lot of people will have been affected. But because we live in a wide open country. A lot less will be affected if they do it now than if they have to go back and do it later when the country gets back on it's feet and starts to expand round it's new 'business corridors'. So I am sorry that you're one of the people who's had to put up with it, really. But your personal pain does seem to be putting a lot of bias and understandable bitterness into the argument.

This thread is moving away from train development news towards how Spain spends its (reducing) income. I do not understand how the continual development and running costs of the AVE is justified when other regional rail and road projects are mothballed/cancelled that in my opinion would provide greater benefit to the average Spaniard.
Add to that the dire finances some of the regions are in and their inability to pay their suppliers etc (farmacias springs to mind), I would have thought the AVE is one of the last things they should be spending their income on at this time, especially as it shall, as with almost all railways, require a continuing subsidy.

I'm surprised Aggie hasn't jumped in yet, with his old story of the trial service between Toledo and Albacete/Cuenca being cancelled (which it was, in 2011). Of course there are still AVE lines and services in those cities, and the new line to Alicante, which passes through albacete, opens up this summer. But, a failing section? Doesn't exist, and as the new fares, links and the recovery set in (we hope by the end of this year) the system will be used more and more.

Of course there are two sections of the AVE which are as yet under-used. One is the section north of Madrid to Valladolid. But within 2-3 years we'll have 2 incoming links there - one to Leon and Asturias, and the other (which will really increase traffic) to Burgos, the Basque Country and France.
The other section is within Galicia. Now many, including me, think that perhaps the Galicia line is unwarranted. Ok maybe it will allow travel from Galicia and northern Portugal, not just to Madrid, but to the Basque area and France, and vice versa. But there are reports that once it gets linked up to Madrid via Zamora and Valladolid, this line could be the most profitable of the AVE system (because it's at the idea distance to deter car journeys and capture air traffic). Not too sure I believe it myself, but here's the report.

http://www.abc.es/agencias/noticia.asp?noticia=1204405

not sure how you come up with that supposition

I am reporting about things as they are, I have no "axe to grind" about the AVE - I am one of the few here who believe it will eventually be for the good of Spain, along with the southern route for goods. It will take the people to the central points from which will radiate spokes of alternative transport to the outlying districts. It will be there for the next 100+ years to allow the growth of Spain's industry and even in this area the faster movement of goods and services.

OK I may have a small "axe to grind" over the mess that is the Granada Metro, but then the flat was too small for the two of us and dog as was the second flat which had all things going for it with regards location in the city (we still park our car near there when visiting the city - its free on the streets compared to the extortion of the car parks in the centre.)
And it is still at least 3 years late with only spasmodic bit work being carried out, although at the beginning of the week I saw some photos in paper of cable being slung between the gantry's but that is really only cosmetic as the system cannot operate with a huge hole in the middle whilst they have a number of bits to finish.

I am sure most people accept for the longer term greater good the works being carried out (they have no option anyway) and I remember the mess we had to live with in the building of the M25, the M25 widening, the dualling of the A1 through the Northern Home Counties up to and including Cambridgeshire, the M11, the A14 (was the A604) and many others over the past 40 years
But our journeys are notionally easier, although they do put more vehicles on the roads, but out of the small villages being bashed to hell by HGV's.

so believe me Angie there is no "pain" no "bitterness" associated with my comments, just reporting it as seen.
Progress has to be allowed to proceed or Spain will drift back to "the good old days" of Franco and earlier
rgds

I love your optimism, it makes it sound like someone is going to flick a switch and everything will be fine. Just been reading a link flagged up on a Spanish site, according to the article people are committing suicide "daily" in Spain but the press is not reporting it, people cannot see any light at the end of the tunnel. People have no jobs, no income, and no hope, yet your beloved AVE continues to lose money at a staggering rate just to provide travel for a small well off proportion of the population. The article concludes that Spain is going through the toughest time since the Civil War and worst, there is little room for hope. I think the Spanish live in a different Spain to you.
http://www.alertadigital.com/2012/07...or-los-medios/

People commit suicide daily in every country

It is a sad article, but the comments at the bottom give it some context. Apparently suicide rates have increased in every developed country since the crisis started, and Spain has one of the lowest suicide rates in the world. Along with the UK, and interesting, the other Southern European countries

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...y_suicide_rate