Tool Charges on the A22 to Faro
Apr 15th 2012, 1:03 pm
#331
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Joined: Nov 2005
Location: In your nightmares.
Posts: 834
Re: Tool Charges on the A22 to Faro
We have just got back from CE. We had a hire car from Faro and as we got in late at night decided to use the A22. No problems with paying the toll at the VSRA post office, quite painless really. Problem came with the return journey as we travelled back on Easter Monday so no chance of paying the toll at the airport. When I asked the hire company about paying the return toll she just said they would write to my UK address......so I wait!
On a more positive point the Algarve Daily News ( http://algarvedailynews.com/ ) is reporting that the hire companies have reached some kind of agreement with the government which should be in place by the end of April with all hire companies fitting transponders and contracting with the hirer, so there may be light at the end of the tunnel
On a more positive point the Algarve Daily News ( http://algarvedailynews.com/ ) is reporting that the hire companies have reached some kind of agreement with the government which should be in place by the end of April with all hire companies fitting transponders and contracting with the hirer, so there may be light at the end of the tunnel
Outcome:
Car hirer fits a transponder (one off cost).
Then charges customers a daily rate to have the benefit of it?
(Nice little earner!)
Even though cutomer may not even use the toll road!
Customer then gets chased and charged by CTT for all toll usage.Probably by leaving credit card details with CTT as part of agreement.
So customer gets stuffed on both counts!!!
Apr 15th 2012, 2:15 pm
#332
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Joined: Nov 2010
Location: Coventry
Posts: 437
Re: Tool Charges on the A22 to Faro
I will not be happy at paying nearly €2 a day on the cost of the car hire when I only use the toll road to and from ( or technically should that be from and to ) the airport. It is nearly twice the cost of the tolls themselves. I try to go into the post office at Vila Real to pay the outward journey but like everyone else can't pay the homeward journey. Electronic tolls should have an electronic payment. I would happily pay over the internet once I got home. I did try this time and managed to find out how much was due by inputting the car registration number but couldn't then pay it.
Kath
Kath
Apr 15th 2012, 2:39 pm
#333
Banned
Joined: Feb 2008
Location: Too far from CE
Posts: 232
Re: Tool Charges on the A22 to Faro
We arrived for our first trip since the tolls came into force and was expecting the worse. However, our car hire company which we always use (auto season) said if we pay by credit card for the rental, they will pay the tolls for us at the post office when they are due and charge our card. They don't have the transponders, they just let the car reg get recognized. We said that we would only be doing two trips on the motorway and they told us the price for that up front. Couldn't be easier::
Apr 15th 2012, 5:16 pm
#334
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Joined: Nov 2005
Location: In your nightmares.
Posts: 834
Re: Tool Charges on the A22 to Faro
[QUOTE=John and Lynn;10006631]We arrived for our first trip since the tolls came into force and was expecting the worse. However, our car hire company which we always use (auto season) said if we pay by credit card for the rental, they will pay the tolls for us at the post office when they are due and charge our card. They don't have the transponders, they just let the car reg get recognized. We said that we would only be doing two trips on the motorway and they told us the price for that up front. Couldn't be easier::[/QUOTE
Our car company the same ,but as I have mentioned earlier the companies apparently have not been billed for December last year yet .
Our car company the same ,but as I have mentioned earlier the companies apparently have not been billed for December last year yet .
Apr 21st 2012, 7:58 am
#336
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,675
Re: Tool Charges on the A22 to Faro
It looks as if each car rental company has a different approach to the tolls at the moment - apparently a permanent solution is due in JUly. The rental company we used (and won't again) was Interrent. When asked about the toll they said we would have to pay in the Post Office, I asked about the return and they just shrugged and agreed it was a problem. I asked about tolls from previous renters and they said that the Post Office has to split out the charges - the rental agreement had a pick-up time. In the event we paid for the initial journey athe PO in VRSA - simplicity itself except for the queue. Cost 5,30. I notice that there is a PO in Castro Marim which is closer and might not be so busy (also you can park right outside). We used the N125 to get back to the airport - took about 1hr 10 - and was not a problem with traffic and this was in the morning rush too!. May not be the same in the summer. Checked out the N270 route from Tavira via Alportel - takes about the same time but is 10kms further, very little traffic but a bit of a bendy road in places.
BTW - you should be aware that the window for paying the toll without being liable to a penalty is 7 days from the date of use - given that it takes 2 days to appear on the syatem - this gives you a 5 day window. ie you can't just rack up your tolls to the end of your holiday and pay in one go! (unless you are using a transponder of course) At the moment (anecdotally) these penalties are not being charged but I wouldn't rely on the situation continuing for too long. This makes me question if those rentcos who say they will pay your tolls as you go along speak with forked tongue because they would need to go to the Post Office every day for every car they have rented out just in case they used the toll road. Maybe they will just pay the penalty for you using your CC when the official notice arrives!!
I notice that some of the Portuguese car rental companies are starting to use the Spanish practices of "full-to-empty" tank for petrol and charging you for a full tank of petrol. In my view this is an out and out scam which verges on fraud. I was charged 120Euros for a full tank of petrol (at Portuguese prices) although when in Spain I was able to 'brim' the tank for 60Euros. To add salt into the wound I still had a 1/4 tank left when I returned the car (I know I should have managed it better but the weather didn't encourage excursions). I shall complain to Argus - who sourced the car for me - and ensure that I ask for a company that provides 'full-to-full' policy for future rentals. I will do the same if I use Economy or Holiday Autos too. I think everyone who gets stung like this should do the same. I might start another thread to encourage this - it's a very short term and foolish step from the companies as they won't get much repeat business if evrybody stops letting themselves be scammed.
Rant over - have a nice weekend.
Apr 21st 2012, 12:56 pm
#337
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Joined: Mar 2006
Location: Leeds, West Yorkshire and Tavira
Posts: 537
Re: Tool Charges on the A22 to Faro
Not strictly true - although practically it doesn't make a difference. The whole A22 is designated a 'portagem' road and it starts 2000m from the sign - at the VRSA junction (it's not motorway until then). The first section of the A22 to the Altura/Monte Gordo turnoff is currently zero-rated and there is no gantry until just before the Tavira turning (at least there wasn't yesterday!). I guess this is to ensure that VRSA and Castro Marim are not swamped with cars avoiding the tolls. The machine where you can buy restricted tickets for foriegn registered cars is indeed about 200m meters from the sign - in the big layby, looks like a bus shelter near the exit.
It looks as if each car rental company has a different approach to the tolls at the moment - apparently a permanent solution is due in JUly. The rental company we used (and won't again) was Interrent. When asked about the toll they said we would have to pay in the Post Office, I asked about the return and they just shrugged and agreed it was a problem. I asked about tolls from previous renters and they said that the Post Office has to split out the charges - the rental agreement had a pick-up time. In the event we paid for the initial journey athe PO in VRSA - simplicity itself except for the queue. Cost 5,30. I notice that there is a PO in Castro Marim which is closer and might not be so busy (also you can park right outside). We used the N125 to get back to the airport - took about 1hr 10 - and was not a problem with traffic and this was in the morning rush too!. May not be the same in the summer. Checked out the N270 route from Tavira via Alportel - takes about the same time but is 10kms further, very little traffic but a bit of a bendy road in places.
BTW - you should be aware that the window for paying the toll without being liable to a penalty is 7 days from the date of use - given that it takes 2 days to appear on the syatem - this gives you a 5 day window. ie you can't just rack up your tolls to the end of your holiday and pay in one go! (unless you are using a transponder of course) At the moment (anecdotally) these penalties are not being charged but I wouldn't rely on the situation continuing for too long. This makes me question if those rentcos who say they will pay your tolls as you go along speak with forked tongue because they would need to go to the Post Office every day for every car they have rented out just in case they used the toll road. Maybe they will just pay the penalty for you using your CC when the official notice arrives!!
I notice that some of the Portuguese car rental companies are starting to use the Spanish practices of "full-to-empty" tank for petrol and charging you for a full tank of petrol. In my view this is an out and out scam which verges on fraud. I was charged 120Euros for a full tank of petrol (at Portuguese prices) although when in Spain I was able to 'brim' the tank for 60Euros. To add salt into the wound I still had a 1/4 tank left when I returned the car (I know I should have managed it better but the weather didn't encourage excursions). I shall complain to Argus - who sourced the car for me - and ensure that I ask for a company that provides 'full-to-full' policy for future rentals. I will do the same if I use Economy or Holiday Autos too. I think everyone who gets stung like this should do the same. I might start another thread to encourage this - it's a very short term and foolish step from the companies as they won't get much repeat business if evrybody stops letting themselves be scammed.
Rant over - have a nice weekend.
It looks as if each car rental company has a different approach to the tolls at the moment - apparently a permanent solution is due in JUly. The rental company we used (and won't again) was Interrent. When asked about the toll they said we would have to pay in the Post Office, I asked about the return and they just shrugged and agreed it was a problem. I asked about tolls from previous renters and they said that the Post Office has to split out the charges - the rental agreement had a pick-up time. In the event we paid for the initial journey athe PO in VRSA - simplicity itself except for the queue. Cost 5,30. I notice that there is a PO in Castro Marim which is closer and might not be so busy (also you can park right outside). We used the N125 to get back to the airport - took about 1hr 10 - and was not a problem with traffic and this was in the morning rush too!. May not be the same in the summer. Checked out the N270 route from Tavira via Alportel - takes about the same time but is 10kms further, very little traffic but a bit of a bendy road in places.
BTW - you should be aware that the window for paying the toll without being liable to a penalty is 7 days from the date of use - given that it takes 2 days to appear on the syatem - this gives you a 5 day window. ie you can't just rack up your tolls to the end of your holiday and pay in one go! (unless you are using a transponder of course) At the moment (anecdotally) these penalties are not being charged but I wouldn't rely on the situation continuing for too long. This makes me question if those rentcos who say they will pay your tolls as you go along speak with forked tongue because they would need to go to the Post Office every day for every car they have rented out just in case they used the toll road. Maybe they will just pay the penalty for you using your CC when the official notice arrives!!
I notice that some of the Portuguese car rental companies are starting to use the Spanish practices of "full-to-empty" tank for petrol and charging you for a full tank of petrol. In my view this is an out and out scam which verges on fraud. I was charged 120Euros for a full tank of petrol (at Portuguese prices) although when in Spain I was able to 'brim' the tank for 60Euros. To add salt into the wound I still had a 1/4 tank left when I returned the car (I know I should have managed it better but the weather didn't encourage excursions). I shall complain to Argus - who sourced the car for me - and ensure that I ask for a company that provides 'full-to-full' policy for future rentals. I will do the same if I use Economy or Holiday Autos too. I think everyone who gets stung like this should do the same. I might start another thread to encourage this - it's a very short term and foolish step from the companies as they won't get much repeat business if evrybody stops letting themselves be scammed.
Rant over - have a nice weekend.
'Which' magazine are looking into this "full-to-empty" tank for petrol business and welcome any info on where it is happening. We had a similar experience to you on a short holiday to Lanzarote. Try using a tank of petrol on a miniscule island when you are there for just a week - you would need to be in the car all day and night. We could not find a company that was not doing this and we returned the car with 60% of its petrol. So a £90 hire ended up nearer £170. Similar position when we went to Mallorca in March. Which mag asked me to send details of the cost of the petrol. Trouble is our hire car was dead cheap on this occasion - adding on the petrol I suppose bought the cost in line with the bigger hirers but I think some of those do this as well. Whatever is in place the customer always gets stung, but my view is that it should be clear what you are paying upfront.
Carol
Apr 21st 2012, 1:42 pm
#338
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Joined: Jun 2005
Location: Puente Esuri
Posts: 6,904
Re: Tool Charges on the A22 to Faro
Not strictly true - although practically it doesn't make a difference. The whole A22 is designated a 'portagem' road and it starts 2000m from the sign - at the VRSA junction (it's not motorway until then). The first section of the A22 to the Altura/Monte Gordo turnoff is currently zero-rated and there is no gantry until just before the Tavira turning (at least there wasn't yesterday!). I guess this is to ensure that VRSA and Castro Marim are not swamped with cars avoiding the tolls. The machine where you can buy restricted tickets for foriegn registered cars is indeed about 200m meters from the sign - in the big layby, looks like a bus shelter near the exit.
It looks as if each car rental company has a different approach to the tolls at the moment - apparently a permanent solution is due in JUly. The rental company we used (and won't again) was Interrent. When asked about the toll they said we would have to pay in the Post Office, I asked about the return and they just shrugged and agreed it was a problem. I asked about tolls from previous renters and they said that the Post Office has to split out the charges - the rental agreement had a pick-up time. In the event we paid for the initial journey athe PO in VRSA - simplicity itself except for the queue. Cost 5,30. I notice that there is a PO in Castro Marim which is closer and might not be so busy (also you can park right outside). We used the N125 to get back to the airport - took about 1hr 10 - and was not a problem with traffic and this was in the morning rush too!. May not be the same in the summer. Checked out the N270 route from Tavira via Alportel - takes about the same time but is 10kms further, very little traffic but a bit of a bendy road in places.
BTW - you should be aware that the window for paying the toll without being liable to a penalty is 7 days from the date of use - given that it takes 2 days to appear on the syatem - this gives you a 5 day window. ie you can't just rack up your tolls to the end of your holiday and pay in one go! (unless you are using a transponder of course) At the moment (anecdotally) these penalties are not being charged but I wouldn't rely on the situation continuing for too long. This makes me question if those rentcos who say they will pay your tolls as you go along speak with forked tongue because they would need to go to the Post Office every day for every car they have rented out just in case they used the toll road. Maybe they will just pay the penalty for you using your CC when the official notice arrives!!
I notice that some of the Portuguese car rental companies are starting to use the Spanish practices of "full-to-empty" tank for petrol and charging you for a full tank of petrol. In my view this is an out and out scam which verges on fraud. I was charged 120Euros for a full tank of petrol (at Portuguese prices) although when in Spain I was able to 'brim' the tank for 60Euros. To add salt into the wound I still had a 1/4 tank left when I returned the car (I know I should have managed it better but the weather didn't encourage excursions). I shall complain to Argus - who sourced the car for me - and ensure that I ask for a company that provides 'full-to-full' policy for future rentals. I will do the same if I use Economy or Holiday Autos too. I think everyone who gets stung like this should do the same. I might start another thread to encourage this - it's a very short term and foolish step from the companies as they won't get much repeat business if evrybody stops letting themselves be scammed.
Rant over - have a nice weekend.
It looks as if each car rental company has a different approach to the tolls at the moment - apparently a permanent solution is due in JUly. The rental company we used (and won't again) was Interrent. When asked about the toll they said we would have to pay in the Post Office, I asked about the return and they just shrugged and agreed it was a problem. I asked about tolls from previous renters and they said that the Post Office has to split out the charges - the rental agreement had a pick-up time. In the event we paid for the initial journey athe PO in VRSA - simplicity itself except for the queue. Cost 5,30. I notice that there is a PO in Castro Marim which is closer and might not be so busy (also you can park right outside). We used the N125 to get back to the airport - took about 1hr 10 - and was not a problem with traffic and this was in the morning rush too!. May not be the same in the summer. Checked out the N270 route from Tavira via Alportel - takes about the same time but is 10kms further, very little traffic but a bit of a bendy road in places.
BTW - you should be aware that the window for paying the toll without being liable to a penalty is 7 days from the date of use - given that it takes 2 days to appear on the syatem - this gives you a 5 day window. ie you can't just rack up your tolls to the end of your holiday and pay in one go! (unless you are using a transponder of course) At the moment (anecdotally) these penalties are not being charged but I wouldn't rely on the situation continuing for too long. This makes me question if those rentcos who say they will pay your tolls as you go along speak with forked tongue because they would need to go to the Post Office every day for every car they have rented out just in case they used the toll road. Maybe they will just pay the penalty for you using your CC when the official notice arrives!!
I notice that some of the Portuguese car rental companies are starting to use the Spanish practices of "full-to-empty" tank for petrol and charging you for a full tank of petrol. In my view this is an out and out scam which verges on fraud. I was charged 120Euros for a full tank of petrol (at Portuguese prices) although when in Spain I was able to 'brim' the tank for 60Euros. To add salt into the wound I still had a 1/4 tank left when I returned the car (I know I should have managed it better but the weather didn't encourage excursions). I shall complain to Argus - who sourced the car for me - and ensure that I ask for a company that provides 'full-to-full' policy for future rentals. I will do the same if I use Economy or Holiday Autos too. I think everyone who gets stung like this should do the same. I might start another thread to encourage this - it's a very short term and foolish step from the companies as they won't get much repeat business if evrybody stops letting themselves be scammed.
Rant over - have a nice weekend.
Apr 21st 2012, 2:58 pm
#339
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Location: Brentford
Posts: 492
Re: Tool Charges on the A22 to Faro
Apr 21st 2012, 5:59 pm
#340
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,675
Re: Tool Charges on the A22 to Faro
BTW there is a Pay Shop in VRSA main square between the restos at the far end. - although once you're that far it's only a couple of meters to the Post Office.
Apr 21st 2012, 8:31 pm
#341
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 943
Re: Tool Charges on the A22 to Faro
Hi Mike
'Which' magazine are looking into this "full-to-empty" tank for petrol business and welcome any info on where it is happening. We had a similar experience to you on a short holiday to Lanzarote. Try using a tank of petrol on a miniscule island when you are there for just a week - you would need to be in the car all day and night. We could not find a company that was not doing this and we returned the car with 60% of its petrol. So a £90 hire ended up nearer £170. Similar position when we went to Mallorca in March. Which mag asked me to send details of the cost of the petrol. Trouble is our hire car was dead cheap on this occasion - adding on the petrol I suppose bought the cost in line with the bigger hirers but I think some of those do this as well. Whatever is in place the customer always gets stung, but my view is that it should be clear what you are paying upfront.
Carol
'Which' magazine are looking into this "full-to-empty" tank for petrol business and welcome any info on where it is happening. We had a similar experience to you on a short holiday to Lanzarote. Try using a tank of petrol on a miniscule island when you are there for just a week - you would need to be in the car all day and night. We could not find a company that was not doing this and we returned the car with 60% of its petrol. So a £90 hire ended up nearer £170. Similar position when we went to Mallorca in March. Which mag asked me to send details of the cost of the petrol. Trouble is our hire car was dead cheap on this occasion - adding on the petrol I suppose bought the cost in line with the bigger hirers but I think some of those do this as well. Whatever is in place the customer always gets stung, but my view is that it should be clear what you are paying upfront.
Carol
Apr 22nd 2012, 8:46 am
#342
BE Positive
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,980
Pay shops
I wonder if the Pay Shop is able to split out the charges like they should do in the PO. ISTR that a previous poster who had to pay the outstanding charge from a previous renter was in a Pay Shop.
BTW there is a Pay Shop in VRSA main square between the restos at the far end. - although once you're that far it's only a couple of meters to the Post Office.
BTW there is a Pay Shop in VRSA main square between the restos at the far end. - although once you're that far it's only a couple of meters to the Post Office.
Payshops are useful and you can also top up at the post offices as well (eg Castro Marim) where there is rarely a queue.
There is a payshop in the kiosk near the ferry in VRSA... Also half way down the pedestrian part of Monte Gordo on the left going towards the beach. And also in Altura. In the large cafe on the right hand corner opposite the last roundabout you turn left at to get to the beach.
Jon
Apr 22nd 2012, 3:46 pm
#343
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Joined: Nov 2005
Location: In your nightmares.
Posts: 834
Re: Tool Charges on the A22 to Faro
Just received email with this attachment from one of car hire companies I book with thru my usual booking agent .
I have replaced the company name with () as do not want to infringe any rule sregarding advertising etc
They have basically got tired of waiting for the people in charge to come up with a solution and are going ahead wih this from 27 April.
Dear Customer,
Please see below a few FAQ´s we have organized to explain everything about the new " () Easy Toll”:
How can I have a transponder to go legally into the A22 road?
The transponders that () offers you are available on arrival for all the clients that wish to have them; they do not need to be pre-booked.
If I ask one on arrival, how will I use it?
The transponder will be given to you by one of our representatives; the car will have already a specific position point in the windscreen where you will place the transponder.
After having the transponder in the car, what else do I need to do?
Basically nothing. Assuming the transponder is placed in the windscreen, the cameras in the toll zones will automatically debit the exact amount of the specific charging point, avoiding Post Office congestion.
How much will cost the transponder?
The transponder will have a cost of 20 euros and it already includes 15 euros of passages in it.
I know in advance, these initial 15 euros will not be enough for my journeys. How can I add more money?
On arrival should you choose to add more money to the transponder, our representatives can recharge it with a minimum of 10 euros and multiples of 5 euros, which will be added to the initial 15 euros.
I thought the 15 euros were enough but I have run out of credit. Can I recharge during the rental?
Yes. During the hire you can just give us a call and by phone we will be able to recharge your transponder with a minimum of 10 euros and multiples of 5 euros. In order to do this, you will need to give us a 24 hours advanced notice as the system does not operate “on-time”.
I have started and finished my holidays and I did not spend the initial 15 euros. Will I get a refund?
Unfortunately no. Any amount left to use will not be possible to refund as we do not have that facility as well.
What happens if I do not take the transponder and decide to use the A22 anyway?
You will incur a fine and possible administration fees also. According with the law, () has no option but to inform who the main driver was with a copy of the rental agreement; from here the police will take over.
With this option, will I still see my credit card involved in this A22 toll system with late charges or fees after my holiday has ended?
No. With this option we do not need any credit card for payment as whatever amount you have in the transponder is whatever amount you will be able to use. There is no place for late charges or administration fees and the A22 toll problem ends when your rental ends.
I have replaced the company name with () as do not want to infringe any rule sregarding advertising etc
They have basically got tired of waiting for the people in charge to come up with a solution and are going ahead wih this from 27 April.
Dear Customer,
Please see below a few FAQ´s we have organized to explain everything about the new " () Easy Toll”:
How can I have a transponder to go legally into the A22 road?
The transponders that () offers you are available on arrival for all the clients that wish to have them; they do not need to be pre-booked.
If I ask one on arrival, how will I use it?
The transponder will be given to you by one of our representatives; the car will have already a specific position point in the windscreen where you will place the transponder.
After having the transponder in the car, what else do I need to do?
Basically nothing. Assuming the transponder is placed in the windscreen, the cameras in the toll zones will automatically debit the exact amount of the specific charging point, avoiding Post Office congestion.
How much will cost the transponder?
The transponder will have a cost of 20 euros and it already includes 15 euros of passages in it.
I know in advance, these initial 15 euros will not be enough for my journeys. How can I add more money?
On arrival should you choose to add more money to the transponder, our representatives can recharge it with a minimum of 10 euros and multiples of 5 euros, which will be added to the initial 15 euros.
I thought the 15 euros were enough but I have run out of credit. Can I recharge during the rental?
Yes. During the hire you can just give us a call and by phone we will be able to recharge your transponder with a minimum of 10 euros and multiples of 5 euros. In order to do this, you will need to give us a 24 hours advanced notice as the system does not operate “on-time”.
I have started and finished my holidays and I did not spend the initial 15 euros. Will I get a refund?
Unfortunately no. Any amount left to use will not be possible to refund as we do not have that facility as well.
What happens if I do not take the transponder and decide to use the A22 anyway?
You will incur a fine and possible administration fees also. According with the law, () has no option but to inform who the main driver was with a copy of the rental agreement; from here the police will take over.
With this option, will I still see my credit card involved in this A22 toll system with late charges or fees after my holiday has ended?
No. With this option we do not need any credit card for payment as whatever amount you have in the transponder is whatever amount you will be able to use. There is no place for late charges or administration fees and the A22 toll problem ends when your rental ends.
Apr 22nd 2012, 3:54 pm
#344
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Joined: Nov 2005
Location: In your nightmares.
Posts: 834
Re: Tool Charges on the A22 to Faro
I have just checked my records and I am using this company in May, so hopefully problem solved fo then.
I believe this to be a really good solution ,so hope other companies will take this up.
Now just got to figure out the charge structure when I use the tolls,so I can keep a running total.
I believe this to be a really good solution ,so hope other companies will take this up.
Now just got to figure out the charge structure when I use the tolls,so I can keep a running total.
Last edited by shirley and anthony hide; Apr 22nd 2012 at 3:56 pm. Reason: added info
Apr 22nd 2012, 5:46 pm
#345
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Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,675
Re: Tool Charges on the A22 to Faro
I have just checked my records and I am using this company in May, so hopefully problem solved fo then.
I believe this to be a really good solution ,so hope other companies will take this up.
Now just got to figure out the charge structure when I use the tolls,so I can keep a running total.
I believe this to be a really good solution ,so hope other companies will take this up.
Now just got to figure out the charge structure when I use the tolls,so I can keep a running total.
PS You can 'leak' the name of the rentco as long as you're not a shareholder
