Terrorism and torture.
Mar 15th 2011 | 3:46 am
#31
Banned
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 7,653
From: Vejer de la Fra., Cadiz
Re: Terrorism and torture.
If If if,
everything that happens depens on an if, can anyone guarentee that only the guilty would be sent to jail for years. You cant. life is not like that,.
All crime and investigation is based on IF.
There ar no guarentees in life and nobody can guarentee 100 precent.
With terrorism, the goal pasts have changed, crimes in the past were usually committed for gain, jealousy, revenge, and other things are were usually aimed at certain people.
Now with terrorists wanting to main and injure the biggest number possible of innocents, with no other motive to do so, but the fact that they dont like what the government is doing in a far away country.
I basically disagree with torture, but balancing it against hundreds of victims, it may have to be done, if those casualties could be avoided.
100 percent certain, impossible, but is anyone given those odds in everyday life??
everything that happens depens on an if, can anyone guarentee that only the guilty would be sent to jail for years. You cant. life is not like that,.
All crime and investigation is based on IF.
There ar no guarentees in life and nobody can guarentee 100 precent.
With terrorism, the goal pasts have changed, crimes in the past were usually committed for gain, jealousy, revenge, and other things are were usually aimed at certain people.
Now with terrorists wanting to main and injure the biggest number possible of innocents, with no other motive to do so, but the fact that they dont like what the government is doing in a far away country.
I basically disagree with torture, but balancing it against hundreds of victims, it may have to be done, if those casualties could be avoided.
100 percent certain, impossible, but is anyone given those odds in everyday life??
You can't undo the death penalty, you can't undo torture.
Jail sentances can be cancelled, and compensation given. Torture breaks people, and it is not something that you can really compensate for.
That's why it is so intolerable. That and the fact that so few terrorists can be identified with 100% accuracy.
Mar 15th 2011 | 3:53 am
#32
Banned
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 5,008
Re: Terrorism and torture.
I have a problem with people who wholeheartedly agree with torture for ‘the greater good’, and exactly the same problem with people who say ‘never’. When I see images of Bush and Blair closing their eyes to pray to their God, while bombing people with a different God, I want to scream; and I want to scream just as loud when I hear people complaining about water boarding.
Both acts are evil and neither would survive in a civilised, black and white society, the utopia for dreamers.
The righteous would want to prosecute the policeman for forcing a suspects head down the toilet and flushing it, while the parents of the kidnapped child recovered alive by the tortured man’s confession would wish to shake his hand for saving their child.
Where does an individual freedom lover stand in such a case? Personally, I would get my hands wet, not just for my child, but anybody’s.
The great argument against any such torture is that innocent people may be involved and tortured. They always have been and always will be; God hasn’t yet got round to stamping ‘criminal’ on their foreheads at birth to ensure against mistakes.
One such innocent was interviewed on the programme last night and described how she went to feel her legs after the tube explosion, and put her hand into an empty space. You have to balance that against the man being water boarded, somehow, or that horrible policeman holding the kidnapper’s head down the toilet.
Both acts are evil and neither would survive in a civilised, black and white society, the utopia for dreamers.
The righteous would want to prosecute the policeman for forcing a suspects head down the toilet and flushing it, while the parents of the kidnapped child recovered alive by the tortured man’s confession would wish to shake his hand for saving their child.
Where does an individual freedom lover stand in such a case? Personally, I would get my hands wet, not just for my child, but anybody’s.
The great argument against any such torture is that innocent people may be involved and tortured. They always have been and always will be; God hasn’t yet got round to stamping ‘criminal’ on their foreheads at birth to ensure against mistakes.
One such innocent was interviewed on the programme last night and described how she went to feel her legs after the tube explosion, and put her hand into an empty space. You have to balance that against the man being water boarded, somehow, or that horrible policeman holding the kidnapper’s head down the toilet.
Food for thought there, H.
A dilema that us posters on here dont have to face, thankfully, or clean up the aftermath of such acts. and about Jacktoos post, and the following ones surprised that as a woman she shoud be more caring and nuturing, and should be against torture,I would like to make a point about that.
Isnt usually the lioness and not the lion who fights for her cubs, it is the lionesss that is the dangerouse one, so is J2s opinion out of line with the nurturing sex?
I dont think so.
Mar 15th 2011 | 3:55 am
#33
Banned
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 7,653
From: Vejer de la Fra., Cadiz
Re: Terrorism and torture.
I have a problem with people who wholeheartedly agree with torture for ‘the greater good’, and exactly the same problem with people who say ‘never’. When I see images of Bush and Blair closing their eyes to pray to their God, while bombing people with a different God, I want to scream; and I want to scream just as loud when I hear people complaining about water boarding.
Both acts are evil and neither would survive in a civilised, black and white society, the utopia for dreamers.
The righteous would want to prosecute the policeman for forcing a suspects head down the toilet and flushing it, while the parents of the kidnapped child recovered alive by the tortured man’s confession would wish to shake his hand for saving their child.
Where does an individual freedom lover stand in such a case? Personally, I would get my hands wet, not just for my child, but anybody’s.
The great argument against any such torture is that innocent people may be involved and tortured. They always have been and always will be; God hasn’t yet got round to stamping ‘criminal’ on their foreheads at birth to ensure against mistakes.
One such innocent was interviewed on the programme last night and described how she went to feel her legs after the tube explosion, and put her hand into an empty space. You have to balance that against the man being water boarded, somehow, or that horrible policeman holding the kidnapper’s head down the toilet.
Both acts are evil and neither would survive in a civilised, black and white society, the utopia for dreamers.
The righteous would want to prosecute the policeman for forcing a suspects head down the toilet and flushing it, while the parents of the kidnapped child recovered alive by the tortured man’s confession would wish to shake his hand for saving their child.
Where does an individual freedom lover stand in such a case? Personally, I would get my hands wet, not just for my child, but anybody’s.
The great argument against any such torture is that innocent people may be involved and tortured. They always have been and always will be; God hasn’t yet got round to stamping ‘criminal’ on their foreheads at birth to ensure against mistakes.
One such innocent was interviewed on the programme last night and described how she went to feel her legs after the tube explosion, and put her hand into an empty space. You have to balance that against the man being water boarded, somehow, or that horrible policeman holding the kidnapper’s head down the toilet.
I remember hearing the father of a murdered child talking about the trial of the alleged suspect. He said that he did not want the wrong person jailed, as that would be a second insult.
I remember the Carl Bridgewater case, where 4 men were sent to jail as child killers, one died in there, and many years later they were released when it was shown that the police involved had forged the papers that sent them to jail. The survivors are broken men, and as for the families, I'm sure that their sense of well being is improved no end by knowing that the real murderer apparantly got off scott free. Oh yeah, and I'm sure that the officers concerned were punished with the full rigour of the law.
Oh, I slay me, I do.
Abu Ghraib, hall mark of US torture. Waterboarding, - such fun eh? I'd just love to be able to do it to the people who advocate it, and as they slid under the water I would whisper into their ear 'By the way, you are going to be kept under a little bit too long. Enjoy.'
Mar 15th 2011 | 4:02 am
#34
Banned
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 5,008
Re: Terrorism and torture.
You can't undo the death penalty, you can't undo torture.
Jail sentances can be cancelled, and compensation given. Torture breaks people, and it is not something that you can really compensate for.
That's why it is so intolerable. That and the fact that so few terrorists can be identified with 100% accuracy.
Jail sentances can be cancelled, and compensation given. Torture breaks people, and it is not something that you can really compensate for.
That's why it is so intolerable. That and the fact that so few terrorists can be identified with 100% accuracy.
I would not like to have to decide, but equally not condem someone who used torture in the attempt to save me and others from having both legs blown off.
Some would say if suspect doesn want to tell, then so be it, just mop up afterwards, and then have an equiry to make sure it doesnt happen again.
Others would say "hot wire his orchestras, now".
Mar 15th 2011 | 4:26 am
#35
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,824
From: Living in a good place
Re: Terrorism and torture.
Isn't it torture to mutlilate muslim women in the name of allah or stone them to death for adultery! Cutting off the hands for petty theft is far worse than waterboarding.
I wonder if you had a relative who was blinded in a terrorist bomb blast (by fragments of bone from the terrorist) if you would feel the same
I wonder if you had a relative who was blinded in a terrorist bomb blast (by fragments of bone from the terrorist) if you would feel the same
Mar 15th 2011 | 4:27 am
#36
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 7,653
From: Vejer de la Fra., Cadiz
Re: Terrorism and torture.
I don't doubt that they would say they do, but afterwards when the guy is proven to know nothing, and he staggers out of jail with his balls the size of canteloupes, what are you gaoing to say? "Sorry dude, but the end justifies the means?"
Me, I'd want to pay you back, and after being tortured, I'd probably think that the terrorists had a point after all.
Hurt me badly enough, and I'd be happy to help them, especially if they could arrange it for me to have a little quiet time alone with you afterwards.
Mar 15th 2011 | 4:33 am
#37
Banned
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 7,653
From: Vejer de la Fra., Cadiz
Re: Terrorism and torture.
Isn't it torture to mutlilate muslim women in the name of allah or stone them to death for adultery! Cutting off the hands for petty theft is far worse than waterboarding.
I wonder if you had a relative who was blinded in a terrorist bomb blast (by fragments of bone from the terrorist) if you would feel the same
I wonder if you had a relative who was blinded in a terrorist bomb blast (by fragments of bone from the terrorist) if you would feel the same
Hey guys, it's OK to torture people, because out there there are people who are doing far worse things.
Nope. Sorry, but that just doesn't cut it. Using your logic, we could justify any disgusting crime against people by pointing out that Hilter killed and tortured by the million, and we still haven't got into 6 figures.
As for the second part, here's a clue. Do we allow the victim of a crime, or their family hand out the punishment?
I appreciate tho that you might not see that as a good reason.....
Of course not, and there's a reason for that so blinding that I won't mention it.
Mar 15th 2011 | 4:41 am
#38
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,367
Re: Terrorism and torture.
For one supposedly totally against torture, you sound as if you'd look forward to it and you'd actually enjoy it. And that's just for someone holding a different view to yours, you sound worse than the jackytoo you are so keen to slag off.
Mar 15th 2011 | 4:50 am
#39
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 5,008
Re: Terrorism and torture.
Mar 15th 2011 | 4:54 am
#40
Banned
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 7,653
From: Vejer de la Fra., Cadiz
Re: Terrorism and torture.
Try not to be silly. I'm against torture. I just try and get people to imagine what it would be like.
Remember, people who are being waterboarded don't know if at some point their torturer's fun and games won't conclude with them being left under just a little bit too long.
So those who advocate waterboarding, I'd just like them to think what it would be like to just have someone whisper that into their ear as they slid into the water.
Geddit?
Mar 15th 2011 | 5:02 am
#42
Banned
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 5,008
Re: Terrorism and torture.
But as the example that, they are 100 per cent certain, bacause the suspect has confessed that a bombing is going to take place, but will not give the information to enable the public to be evacuated, what would you suggest?
You said that there are other ways, just out of curiosity I would like to know them.
Mar 15th 2011 | 5:10 am
#43
Banned
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 7,653
From: Vejer de la Fra., Cadiz
Re: Terrorism and torture.
I have never said it is not a bad thing and not wrong.
But as the example that, they are 100 per cent certain, bacause the suspect has confessed that a bombing is going to take place, but will not give the information to enable the public to be evacuated, what would you suggest?
You said that there are other ways, just out of curiosity I would like to know them.
But as the example that, they are 100 per cent certain, bacause the suspect has confessed that a bombing is going to take place, but will not give the information to enable the public to be evacuated, what would you suggest?
You said that there are other ways, just out of curiosity I would like to know them.
It's still torture, and if I were nasty enough to do it, I'd also leave you in there till your brain was running out of your ears and then let you out as a warning to the rest of the population.
Be honest sport, if the police said to you we are 100% certain, would you believe them? I might if they could demonstrate evidence, but I tend to think that had they the proof, they wouldn't need to torture in the first place.
You could in theory justify it, in the scenario you describe, that you knew 100% that a terrorist atrocity were being planned, and you were 100% sure that you had the right man.
Fine, under those circumstances, go ahead. However, in return, I want an assurance that if you are wrong, you will be jailed for life with no possibility of release, as will anyone who supplied you with the information to make that decision.
That's just to keep you honest, ok? It's nothing to worry about after all, as you will be 100% certain, won't you?
Mar 15th 2011 | 5:19 am
#44
Not Banned (yet)
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 6,404
From: East Sussex
Re: Terrorism and torture.
The other ways involve sensory deprivation. After a day or two of that, you would be pathetically grateful to be allowed to tell me what you know.
It's still torture, and if I were nasty enough to do it, I'd also leave you in there till your brain was running out of your ears and then let you out as a warning to the rest of the population.
Be honest sport, if the police said to you we are 100% certain, would you believe them? I might if they could demonstrate evidence, but I tend to think that had they the proof, they wouldn't need to torture in the first place.
You could in theory justify it, in the scenario you describe, that you knew 100% that a terrorist atrocity were being planned, and you were 100% sure that you had the right man.
Fine, under those circumstances, go ahead. However, in return, I want an assurance that if you are wrong, you will be jailed for life with no possibility of release, as will anyone who supplied you with the information to make that decision.
That's just to keep you honest, ok? It's nothing to worry about after all, as you will be 100% certain, won't you?
It's still torture, and if I were nasty enough to do it, I'd also leave you in there till your brain was running out of your ears and then let you out as a warning to the rest of the population.
Be honest sport, if the police said to you we are 100% certain, would you believe them? I might if they could demonstrate evidence, but I tend to think that had they the proof, they wouldn't need to torture in the first place.
You could in theory justify it, in the scenario you describe, that you knew 100% that a terrorist atrocity were being planned, and you were 100% sure that you had the right man.
Fine, under those circumstances, go ahead. However, in return, I want an assurance that if you are wrong, you will be jailed for life with no possibility of release, as will anyone who supplied you with the information to make that decision.
That's just to keep you honest, ok? It's nothing to worry about after all, as you will be 100% certain, won't you?
Mar 15th 2011 | 5:22 am
#45
Banned
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 7,653
From: Vejer de la Fra., Cadiz
Re: Terrorism and torture.
Can such things be? Next you'll be telling me that the police told lies and tried to cover it all up.
