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Starmer hatches new free movement plot with Spain

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Starmer hatches new free movement plot with Spain

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Old Aug 31st 2024 | 8:38 am
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Default Re: Starmer hatches new free movement plot with Spain

Originally Posted by dave7777
The full benefits of Brexit will never been seen in full until there is a government who believes in it and wants to implement it fully. That is down to the Tories. Personally speaking, I have done very well out of it financially. That's not a gloat, just facts
I am curious- what benefits are projected ? The supposed benefits of ending FOM are not apparent if the non-EU numbers coming are greater and more likely to be long term residents on average, and there is no indication that new trade deals will make up for any losses by making trade with Europe more costly, plus reducing opportunities for Brits seeking to retire in Europe will mean more demand for services in the UK. What exactly has not been implemented of the key aspects of Brexit ?
 
Old Aug 31st 2024 | 8:51 am
  #182  
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Default Re: Starmer hatches new free movement plot with Spain

Originally Posted by morpeth
I am curious- what benefits are projected ? The supposed benefits of ending FOM are not apparent if the non-EU numbers coming are greater and more likely to be long term residents on average, and there is no indication that new trade deals will make up for any losses by making trade with Europe more costly, plus reducing opportunities for Brits seeking to retire in Europe will mean more demand for services in the UK. What exactly has not been implemented of the key aspects of Brexit ?
Because that was a political choice made by the Tory government, to massively increase immigration from non EU countries. I don't agree with it, as is now being borne out it was a mistake., You are trying to say that UK pensioners, who mostly have worked all their lives, paid taxes and NI is a problem and stretch on resources, whilst approx 4m EU migrants , many who haven't paid anything in taxes and NI for more than a short time arent? Okay, best leave it there, Each to his/her own I guess.
 
Old Aug 31st 2024 | 8:57 am
  #183  
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Default Re: Starmer hatches new free movement plot with Spain

Originally Posted by DLC
The UK was never limited to buying from just the single market in the first place. Most of the UK's post-Brexit trade agreements were simply rolled over from the EU's, apart from trade with EU countries which is slower and more expensive.



Even if the goods pass the rules of origin there's still customs paperwork and delay. Not as free and easy as being in the single market.



Vote Leave promised unicorns, rainbows, and the moon on a stick but had no plan for implementing what they promised. Unsurprisingly the UK government could not force the EU to agree to what was promised by Vote Leave.



Whatever it was that you said wasn't implemented as voted for, which is still not clear. Presumably those much sought-after Brexit benefits.
Remain also promised unicorns if the vote was leave, short memory? Emergency budget the day after the vote? 500k job losses just on a leave vote? Total BS
The UK govt went into negotiations with one hand tied behind its back, thanks to parliaments refusal to accept the result. We will never know what deal could have been reached if both parties had negotiated in good faith.
 
Old Aug 31st 2024 | 9:05 am
  #184  
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Default Re: Starmer hatches new free movement plot with Spain

Originally Posted by dave7777
Because that was a political choice made by the Tory government, to massively increase immigration from non EU countries. I don't agree with it, as is now being borne out it was a mistake., You are trying to say that UK pensioners, who mostly have worked all their lives, paid taxes and NI is a problem and stretch on resources, whilst approx 4m EU migrants , many who haven't paid anything in taxes and NI for more than a short time arent? Okay, best leave it there, Each to his/her own I guess.
Well the policies to bring in numbers much more than EU numbers has been going on since the 90s.

As far as pensioners, taking away the option for living in the EU. or having properly staffed care homes is a negative,

We can agree on the mistakes of the Tories, and Labour before them in immigration matters, and poor economic planning and policies in particular by the party of Brexit.

No I was just saying Brits who moved to EU resulted is reduced cost to public services in the UK. which would need to be offset against any increase to public service costs from EU immigrants. in analysis of the effect of FOM

The economic effect of EU migrants on services needs to measured against the overall benefits of EU membership, something for which I haven't seem a recent study on.

Yes an intangible, but taking away opportunities for me is a negative, especially for the young.

 
Old Aug 31st 2024 | 9:08 am
  #185  
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Default Re: Starmer hatches new free movement plot with Spain

Originally Posted by dave7777
Okay, ppl always seem to get personal in a debate when they fail to land their point. Congrats
Personal in the sense I was responding to your comment.
Two different things (death and denial of FOM) that only directly affect an individual but both have significant indirect effects on family and friends of those directly affected.
The link seems obvious if a little thought is applied.
 
Old Aug 31st 2024 | 9:13 am
  #186  
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Default Re: Starmer hatches new free movement plot with Spain

Originally Posted by morpeth
Well the policies to bring in numbers much more than EU numbers has been going on since the 90s.

As far as pensioners, taking away the option for living in the EU. or having properly staffed care homes is a negative,

We can agree on the mistakes of the Tories, and Labour before them in immigration matters, and poor economic planning and policies in particular by the party of Brexit.

No I was just saying Brits who moved to EU resulted is reduced cost to public services in the UK. which would need to be offset against any increase to public service costs from EU immigrants. in analysis of the effect of FOM

The economic effect of EU migrants on services needs to measured against the overall benefits of EU membership, something for which I haven't seem a recent study on.

Yes an intangible, but taking away opportunities for me is a negative, especially for the young.
Perhaps, but the UK govt still pays for UK citizens who are pensioners healthcare who reside in the EU. S1 form here in Spain for example. So its hardly a huge gain for the UK
 
Old Aug 31st 2024 | 9:30 am
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Default Re: Starmer hatches new free movement plot with Spain

Originally Posted by dave7777
Perhaps, but the UK govt still pays for UK citizens who are pensioners healthcare who reside in the EU. S1 form here in Spain for example. So its hardly a huge gain for the UK
Actually treating UK pensioners in Spain (via tbe S1) is a huge gain for the NHS. Furthermore there are the savings in relation to other UK benefits such as bus passes (over £1B p.a.), reducing pressure on care resources, the infrastructure, accommodation, etc.
 
Old Aug 31st 2024 | 9:33 am
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Default Re: Starmer hatches new free movement plot with Spain

Originally Posted by dave7777
Remain also promised unicorns if the vote was leave, short memory? Emergency budget the day after the vote? 500k job losses just on a leave vote? Total BS
The UK govt went into negotiations with one hand tied behind its back, thanks to parliaments refusal to accept the result. We will never know what deal could have been reached if both parties had negotiated in good faith.
More rubbish.

The UK government went into negotiations long before Parliament became involved.

Try and stick to facts rather than fantasies.
 
Old Aug 31st 2024 | 6:00 pm
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Default Re: Starmer hatches new free movement plot with Spain

Originally Posted by dave7777
Perhaps, but the UK govt still pays for UK citizens who are pensioners healthcare who reside in the EU. S1 form here in Spain for example. So its hardly a huge gain for the UK
Fair enough, but I did not assert it was a huge gain, and I do not know the the figures for whether the net costs reimbursed for health care for Brits in the EU is more or less than what the costs would have been if the same people had been in the UK- but the overall costs and pressure on public services surely less than if they had been in the UK, be it pressure on rents, bus passes, other benefits,, and so forth. My point is if the costs of 4 million EU citizens is considered, so should the savings from 1 million Brits in the EU.

The other factor is for some items is to what degree is immigration rather than policy choices the issue concerning the pressure on services and costs.

 
Old Aug 31st 2024 | 6:02 pm
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Default Re: Starmer hatches new free movement plot with Spain

There's aways a problem when Brexit meets reality.

This business of its not having been done properly, for example. Presumably that would have included the scrapping of all retained EU law, and yet Kemi Badenoch, who nobody could possibly deny was and is an ardent and very committed Brexiter, stepped back from the brink on that one in her role as Trade and Business Secretary and decided that the majority (to the tune of 4/5ths) should remain unaltered and "only" 800 be altered or scrapped.

Another was the Windsor Framework agreement on NI, hailed by another very committed Brexiter Steve Baker (Mr Brexit hard man himself), in his role as Northern Ireland Minister as a clear improvement on the terms agreed by Boris Johnson. Naturally it didn't please the DUP or the ERG, formerly led by The Hard Man, because they wanted to unilaterally scrap the Protocol. Baker was absurdly accused of being a fraud and not a True Brexiter but as always, it was simply a matter of being brought face to face with the realities and the consequences of various courses of action and having (in a position of responsibility, as opposed to one of sniping from the sidelines, safe in the knowledge that your supposed solutions would never be put to the test) to be pragmatic. David Davis and his Brexit talks sequencing ("the row of the summer" - he folded on day one, if I remember correctly) was probably the earliest harbinger of this trend.
 
Old Aug 31st 2024 | 6:12 pm
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Default Re: Starmer hatches new free movement plot with Spain

Originally Posted by dave7777
Because that was a political choice made by the Tory government, to massively increase immigration from non EU countries. I don't agree with it, as is now being borne out it was a mistake.[...]
It was the Will of The People.

They were promised an Australian-style, points-based immigration system and that is what was delivered by the Vote Leave Government. They all knew what they were voting for.
 
Old Aug 31st 2024 | 6:40 pm
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Default Re: Starmer hatches new free movement plot with Spain

Originally Posted by Finknottle
More rubbish.

The UK government went into negotiations long before Parliament became involved.

Try and stick to facts rather than fantasies.
Really how so? Seeing as article 50 wasn't even triggered until 29/03/17 and negotiations actually began on 19/06/17.. Which facts would they be? The facts you believe due to your ideological beliefs? or real facts?
 
Old Aug 31st 2024 | 7:49 pm
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Default Re: Starmer hatches new free movement plot with Spain

Originally Posted by dave7777
Really how so? Seeing as article 50 wasn't even triggered until 29/03/17 [...]
But the fact is, it was actioned and before the sovereign parliament had agreed negotiating lines, which were subsequently dictated by Theresa May.

So much for parliament obstructing Brexit - they were put into a headlock and forced to vote for an unknown.
 
Old Aug 31st 2024 | 9:18 pm
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Default Re: Starmer hatches new free movement plot with Spain

Originally Posted by dave7777
Really how so? Seeing as article 50 wasn't even triggered until 29/03/17 and negotiations actually began on 19/06/17.. Which facts would they be? The facts you believe due to your ideological beliefs? or real facts?
LONDON (AP) — Theresa May :- July 11, 2016, while candidate for Conservative Party leader: “Brexit means Brexit and we’re going to make a success of it.”
___
July 13, 2016, in her first speech as prime minister: “As we leave the European Union, we will forge a bold, new, positive role for ourselves in the world.”
 
Old Aug 31st 2024 | 9:46 pm
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Default Re: Starmer hatches new free movement plot with Spain

Originally Posted by Finknottle
LONDON (AP) — Theresa May :- July 11, 2016, while candidate for Conservative Party leader: “Brexit means Brexit and we’re going to make a success of it.”
___
July 13, 2016, in her first speech as prime minister: “As we leave the European Union, we will forge a bold, new, positive role for ourselves in the world.”
None of what you quoted are negotiations. They are a pitch for the leaders job, and then just word salad.
Negotiations started on 19/08/17 with the EU, these are the facts.
 


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