Spain's insolvent - get your money out!
May 24th 2013 | 5:28 am
#106
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 5,426
From: Velez-Malaga
Re: Spain's insolvent - get your money out!
Yet... (and here's the difference)
US taxation is a mere fraction of ours : income tax, VAT, energy taxes, etc, and frankly, more of the population actually pays tax in the US, AND most don't have nearly the aversion to paying it that we do.
Cost of living is lower in the US (and please don't waste your google bandwidth comparing costs of living in Manhattan or Beverly Hills with rural areas around Oviedo), standard of living is generally higher for the majority of Americans than it is for Europeans. I also find it curious that their current unemployment crisis of 7.8% is, by their standards, the worst since the great depression, whilst 27% here is the worst since what, 20 years? I'm not sure if it's the highest ever.
Many people who are living, or have lived in the USA for many years seem to think quite differently.
http://britishexpats.com/forum/showthread.php?t=724233
In case you can't be bothered, here are a few quotes:-
"We have been back home in the UK now for 6 weeks and I find it is lots cheaper than America. Though I read many posts here with people saying the UK is so expensive. I tend to disagree. I live in the city and it is way cheaper than the rural Minnesota we lived in. Let me expand on my perceptions of this.
Utilities costs where near $380 a month in a small apartment in the winter in MN, due to the place having terrible insulation etc. The towns gas was very expensive and water was not cheap either.
Wife and I with health insurance was around $330 per month. Towards the end we had no insurance and I was charged $219 per doctor visit and near $1,600 per month for the medication i need for my spinal disease. All of which i now get for free.
Rent, car insurance, house insurance, petrol ( way cheaper than UK ) etc all added up to a damn expensive living expenditure.
We now live in a Victorian town house with 3 floors and spend only costs around 80 pounds a month in gas in winter, thanks to proper building codes.
We use the city metro system and can talk a ten minute walk into town. Free health care / medication. Internet / TV is cheaper in the UK. 38 pounds a month for Virgin media versus $130 for comcast with less channels etc."
"Interesting to hear, been in the US for 15 years and had become convinced that living here is more expensive than the U.K but wasn't sure..
FYI - Just got private health Insurance via Aetna, $180.00 a month with a $10,000.00 deductable ... and people complain about the NHS."
Totally agree! I was comparing costs with my parents a couple of weeks ago and a couple of things came to light that were significantly more expensive!
"A couple of them are our own fault...for one thing, we never change mobile phone companies so we're paying an exorbitant $180/month for 2 lines. (God, I can't wait to get a pay as you go!). In our area there's only one cable/internet and electric/gas company so those are horrible too: $160/month for the most basic cable package and typically $250+/month for electric and gas. My parents pay about half of that for much better service.
And that's before we even start on health/dental care..."
"Yes, that's the biggest killer....we've got very good health insurance from the wife's job, but it still costs us $400+ a month and we're seriously in the hole for bills when our littlest one was born 6 weeks early and had to spend 3 weeks in NICU.
Everything else I guess is pretty variable by region as well as season, which affects the cost far more in the US than I ever noticed it doing in the UK, bar salary and cost of housing/rent, everything else seemed fairly consistent and the seasons had far less impact on your budgeting."
"If you get healthcare through your company and only pay a portion, it might cost the same to be private in both countries. But not if you are self-employed as I am and pay the whole cost of your insurance ($1,400 a month for two people). In that case, private coverage in the UK is much cheaper.
Utilities cheaper but bad service? I pay an average of $800 a month right now - for the rates they charge in the UK, they can crap on my head and I'd still be happy It's not like here I get a cheery and helpful service rep and a plethora of choices.
Property taxes (aka council tax) in my area are $12,000 a year and up. Nowhere in England is that pricey."
"As for taxes, I'm sure they are lower in the UK than the US, when you add in out-of-pocket expenditure on health care on the US side of the balance sheet. Again, for a retired person, I'm sure that UK Community Tax is going to be less money than most US Property Taxes."
"Our annual housing tax for a modest 3-bedroomed colonial house in New Jersey (New York Metro area) is currently now $14,300 per year - it was $7000 pa when we moved in during the Summer of 2000. Honestly, that is considered 'low' for our town...! We do however get our rubbish collected twice a week....
When one of our neighbours retired he sold up and moved out of New Jersey, I was amazed when he told me that single people and/or retired people don't get any discount on their housing taxes (they do in the UK) and many choose to retire to States like Delaware, North Carolina and Florida where the housing taxes are cheaper. He left because he didn't want to pay for other people's kids to be educated in such an expensive public school system (although ironically his kids were educated in the local public schools and both he and his wife were teachers).
I also find the cost of electricity to be very high because unlike the UK with a temperate climate, air-conditioning is almost a necessity in the very hot and very humid Summers in NJ. I can't wait to leave the US - hopefully in approx 18 -24 months - and would dread growing old there.
I'd love to hear what people are charged for window cleaning in other parts of the US and Down Under....I was charged a whopping $400 for my windows and insect screens to be cleaned and they won't be cleaned again until the house goes up for sale! My mum in England was horrified, I think she only pays around 15 pounds!"
May 24th 2013 | 6:15 am
#107
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 499
Re: Spain's insolvent - get your money out!
£10 month for a five bed house + conservatory all cleaned with pure water so no smears.
May 24th 2013 | 6:30 am
#108
Banned
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,824
From: Living in a good place
Re: Spain's insolvent - get your money out!
We have a house in Florida, things have gone up but by no means as much as Europe. Read the Florida forums...most Brits love it, only problems are Visas and getting permanent residence.
May 24th 2013 | 6:40 am
#109
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 614
Re: Spain's insolvent - get your money out!
The point is that ALL money these days is "virtual": an abstract concept with little or no basis in reality.
While a little inflation is a good thing (it makes your debts "magically" go away
), too much inflation causes unemployment - though you'd have to go to 1970's levels to see the effect.
May 24th 2013 | 7:17 am
#110
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 5,426
From: Velez-Malaga
Re: Spain's insolvent - get your money out!
They may well do, but Florida is only one state out of 50, and no more representative of the US as a whole than the CDS is of Spain.
May 24th 2013 | 7:31 am
#111
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 5,426
From: Velez-Malaga
Re: Spain's insolvent - get your money out!
There seem to be a few signs of life in the retail sector in Malaga province at the moment:-
http://blogs.diariosur.es/-que-le-co...nda-en-malaga/
http://www.diariosur.es/20130516/loc...305160137.html
http://www.diariosur.es/20130515/loc...305150015.html
http://blogs.diariosur.es/-que-le-co...nda-en-malaga/
http://www.diariosur.es/20130516/loc...305160137.html
http://www.diariosur.es/20130515/loc...305150015.html
http://www.diariosur.es/20130524/loc...305240046.html
I thought "wouldn't fancy ploughing through that lot" until I remembered I once received just over 3,000 applications for one Clerical Assistant post in Manchester during the 1980s recession, and had to complete a form detailing why each and every one of them either had or had not been shortlisted.
May 24th 2013 | 8:56 am
#112
Banned
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,824
From: Living in a good place
Re: Spain's insolvent - get your money out!
I didn't mention the US, you did. But it's a good example, so I'll play along:
From what I understand, the most obvious difference between their welfare system and Spain's is that it's not obligatory to have health insurance in the US (yet). But few people like you realise that it's also illegal for public hospitals to refuse treatment on the basis of ability to pay. That's the problem, actually, billions are spent treating people with no ability to pay for it. That's what Obamacare sought to solve - until the republicans whittled it down into a piece of junk legislation.
Anyway, unemployed Americans receive basic unemployment benefits for some period of time (like Spain - and paltry, like Spain), welfare housing and food stamps and many similar benefits programs are also available, albeit not terribly generous, otherwise they could end up like us - paying a lot more tax, receiving little for it - and generally, economic stagnation - sound familiar?
Yet... (and here's the difference)
US taxation is a mere fraction of ours : income tax, VAT, energy taxes, etc, and frankly, more of the population actually pays tax in the US, AND most don't have nearly the aversion to paying it that we do.
Europeans are far more prolific adopters of tax avoidance schemes than Americans - Europeans don't have to be rich to have plenty of motivation to engage in tax avoidance or even evasion (many average Europeans demonstrably avoid tax at every opportunity), so tax collection is just more effective in the US. History shows that tax receipts increase when taxes are lower, because people are making more money and spending more money - and paying taxes on all of it, rather than making less, spending less, and necessarily doing everything to avoid paying tax.
Cost of living is lower in the US (and please don't waste your google bandwidth comparing costs of living in Manhattan or Beverly Hills with rural areas around Oviedo), standard of living is generally higher for the majority of Americans than it is for Europeans. I also find it curious that their current unemployment crisis of 7.8% is, by their standards, the worst since the great depression, whilst 27% here is the worst since what, 20 years? I'm not sure if it's the highest ever.
Lastly, why is it that despite being impoverished and zero health care, that Americans consistently exhibit very good health - every American I've ever known appears happy and healthy (e.g., I just read that Americans now have the lowest percentage of smokers per capita in the world).
And what is it with their teeth? Seems they consistently have excellent dental health. How is that possible if they have no health care?
On second thought, perhaps the US wasn't a very good example for you to bring up. If you want to start a pissing match, going into it blindly isn't particularly advisable.
From what I understand, the most obvious difference between their welfare system and Spain's is that it's not obligatory to have health insurance in the US (yet). But few people like you realise that it's also illegal for public hospitals to refuse treatment on the basis of ability to pay. That's the problem, actually, billions are spent treating people with no ability to pay for it. That's what Obamacare sought to solve - until the republicans whittled it down into a piece of junk legislation.
Anyway, unemployed Americans receive basic unemployment benefits for some period of time (like Spain - and paltry, like Spain), welfare housing and food stamps and many similar benefits programs are also available, albeit not terribly generous, otherwise they could end up like us - paying a lot more tax, receiving little for it - and generally, economic stagnation - sound familiar?
Yet... (and here's the difference)
US taxation is a mere fraction of ours : income tax, VAT, energy taxes, etc, and frankly, more of the population actually pays tax in the US, AND most don't have nearly the aversion to paying it that we do.
Europeans are far more prolific adopters of tax avoidance schemes than Americans - Europeans don't have to be rich to have plenty of motivation to engage in tax avoidance or even evasion (many average Europeans demonstrably avoid tax at every opportunity), so tax collection is just more effective in the US. History shows that tax receipts increase when taxes are lower, because people are making more money and spending more money - and paying taxes on all of it, rather than making less, spending less, and necessarily doing everything to avoid paying tax.
Cost of living is lower in the US (and please don't waste your google bandwidth comparing costs of living in Manhattan or Beverly Hills with rural areas around Oviedo), standard of living is generally higher for the majority of Americans than it is for Europeans. I also find it curious that their current unemployment crisis of 7.8% is, by their standards, the worst since the great depression, whilst 27% here is the worst since what, 20 years? I'm not sure if it's the highest ever.
Lastly, why is it that despite being impoverished and zero health care, that Americans consistently exhibit very good health - every American I've ever known appears happy and healthy (e.g., I just read that Americans now have the lowest percentage of smokers per capita in the world).
And what is it with their teeth? Seems they consistently have excellent dental health. How is that possible if they have no health care?
On second thought, perhaps the US wasn't a very good example for you to bring up. If you want to start a pissing match, going into it blindly isn't particularly advisable.
May 24th 2013 | 9:49 am
#113
On the road again.
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 17,507
From: On Top of the World
Re: Spain's insolvent - get your money out!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eou8ZHWViU
You call this healthy ?
It would be hilarious if it weren't so sad.
Two thirds of Americans are obese or overweight.
You call this healthy ?
It would be hilarious if it weren't so sad.
Two thirds of Americans are obese or overweight.
May 24th 2013 | 9:55 am
#114
Banned
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,824
From: Living in a good place
Re: Spain's insolvent - get your money out!
Have seen some but they are usually trailer trash. The higher up the scale the thinner they get
May 24th 2013 | 9:58 am
#115
Straw Man.
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 46,302
From: That, there, that's not my post count... nothing to see here, move along.
Re: Spain's insolvent - get your money out!
Now America is the paragon of good health.... this forum is priceless.
May 24th 2013 | 10:21 am
#116
On the road again.
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 17,507
From: On Top of the World
Re: Spain's insolvent - get your money out!
One or two nice rolly pollies on that link, though you might need a sat nav to find your way around them.
May 24th 2013 | 6:16 pm
#117
BE Positive
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,984
Re: Spain's insolvent - get your money out!
Are you being deliberately difficult?
The "printing press" is an analogy. Effectively they are creating money out of nothing, but they do it on a computer rather than by printing it
Of course we should be worried about it. QE increases inflation i.e. the cost of things while wages, pensions and savings remain the same, or fall relatively, so everything gets more expensive
The people who benefit are those with lots of debt, as QE keeps the cost of debt at low levels. Basically people with savings suffer as they are funding people to have cheap credit
The "printing press" is an analogy. Effectively they are creating money out of nothing, but they do it on a computer rather than by printing it
Of course we should be worried about it. QE increases inflation i.e. the cost of things while wages, pensions and savings remain the same, or fall relatively, so everything gets more expensive
The people who benefit are those with lots of debt, as QE keeps the cost of debt at low levels. Basically people with savings suffer as they are funding people to have cheap credit
Managing money supply has always been in play, but QE is a programme even named as such in the US (QE 1, QE2 etc), which means that they have upped the 'printing' of money aggressively from the norm....
Jon
May 24th 2013 | 6:31 pm
#118
BE Positive
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,984
Re: Spain's insolvent - get your money out!
Have you ever read this thread in the Moving Back to the UK section of BE?
Many people who are living, or have lived in the USA for many years seem to think quite differently.
http://britishexpats.com/forum/showthread.php?t=724233
In case you can't be bothered, here are a few quotes:-
"We have been back home in the UK now for 6 weeks and I find it is lots cheaper than America. Though I read many posts here with people saying the UK is so expensive. I tend to disagree. I live in the city and it is way cheaper than the rural Minnesota we lived in. Let me expand on my perceptions of this.
Utilities costs where near $380 a month in a small apartment in the winter in MN, due to the place having terrible insulation etc. The towns gas was very expensive and water was not cheap either.
Wife and I with health insurance was around $330 per month. Towards the end we had no insurance and I was charged $219 per doctor visit and near $1,600 per month for the medication i need for my spinal disease. All of which i now get for free.
Rent, car insurance, house insurance, petrol ( way cheaper than UK ) etc all added up to a damn expensive living expenditure.
We now live in a Victorian town house with 3 floors and spend only costs around 80 pounds a month in gas in winter, thanks to proper building codes.
We use the city metro system and can talk a ten minute walk into town. Free health care / medication. Internet / TV is cheaper in the UK. 38 pounds a month for Virgin media versus $130 for comcast with less channels etc."
"Interesting to hear, been in the US for 15 years and had become convinced that living here is more expensive than the U.K but wasn't sure..
FYI - Just got private health Insurance via Aetna, $180.00 a month with a $10,000.00 deductable ... and people complain about the NHS."
Totally agree! I was comparing costs with my parents a couple of weeks ago and a couple of things came to light that were significantly more expensive!
"A couple of them are our own fault...for one thing, we never change mobile phone companies so we're paying an exorbitant $180/month for 2 lines. (God, I can't wait to get a pay as you go!). In our area there's only one cable/internet and electric/gas company so those are horrible too: $160/month for the most basic cable package and typically $250+/month for electric and gas. My parents pay about half of that for much better service.
And that's before we even start on health/dental care..."
"Yes, that's the biggest killer....we've got very good health insurance from the wife's job, but it still costs us $400+ a month and we're seriously in the hole for bills when our littlest one was born 6 weeks early and had to spend 3 weeks in NICU.
Everything else I guess is pretty variable by region as well as season, which affects the cost far more in the US than I ever noticed it doing in the UK, bar salary and cost of housing/rent, everything else seemed fairly consistent and the seasons had far less impact on your budgeting."
"If you get healthcare through your company and only pay a portion, it might cost the same to be private in both countries. But not if you are self-employed as I am and pay the whole cost of your insurance ($1,400 a month for two people). In that case, private coverage in the UK is much cheaper.
Utilities cheaper but bad service? I pay an average of $800 a month right now - for the rates they charge in the UK, they can crap on my head and I'd still be happy It's not like here I get a cheery and helpful service rep and a plethora of choices.
Property taxes (aka council tax) in my area are $12,000 a year and up. Nowhere in England is that pricey."
"As for taxes, I'm sure they are lower in the UK than the US, when you add in out-of-pocket expenditure on health care on the US side of the balance sheet. Again, for a retired person, I'm sure that UK Community Tax is going to be less money than most US Property Taxes."
"Our annual housing tax for a modest 3-bedroomed colonial house in New Jersey (New York Metro area) is currently now $14,300 per year - it was $7000 pa when we moved in during the Summer of 2000. Honestly, that is considered 'low' for our town...! We do however get our rubbish collected twice a week....
When one of our neighbours retired he sold up and moved out of New Jersey, I was amazed when he told me that single people and/or retired people don't get any discount on their housing taxes (they do in the UK) and many choose to retire to States like Delaware, North Carolina and Florida where the housing taxes are cheaper. He left because he didn't want to pay for other people's kids to be educated in such an expensive public school system (although ironically his kids were educated in the local public schools and both he and his wife were teachers).
I also find the cost of electricity to be very high because unlike the UK with a temperate climate, air-conditioning is almost a necessity in the very hot and very humid Summers in NJ. I can't wait to leave the US - hopefully in approx 18 -24 months - and would dread growing old there.
I'd love to hear what people are charged for window cleaning in other parts of the US and Down Under....I was charged a whopping $400 for my windows and insect screens to be cleaned and they won't be cleaned again until the house goes up for sale! My mum in England was horrified, I think she only pays around 15 pounds!"
Many people who are living, or have lived in the USA for many years seem to think quite differently.
http://britishexpats.com/forum/showthread.php?t=724233
In case you can't be bothered, here are a few quotes:-
"We have been back home in the UK now for 6 weeks and I find it is lots cheaper than America. Though I read many posts here with people saying the UK is so expensive. I tend to disagree. I live in the city and it is way cheaper than the rural Minnesota we lived in. Let me expand on my perceptions of this.
Utilities costs where near $380 a month in a small apartment in the winter in MN, due to the place having terrible insulation etc. The towns gas was very expensive and water was not cheap either.
Wife and I with health insurance was around $330 per month. Towards the end we had no insurance and I was charged $219 per doctor visit and near $1,600 per month for the medication i need for my spinal disease. All of which i now get for free.
Rent, car insurance, house insurance, petrol ( way cheaper than UK ) etc all added up to a damn expensive living expenditure.
We now live in a Victorian town house with 3 floors and spend only costs around 80 pounds a month in gas in winter, thanks to proper building codes.
We use the city metro system and can talk a ten minute walk into town. Free health care / medication. Internet / TV is cheaper in the UK. 38 pounds a month for Virgin media versus $130 for comcast with less channels etc."
"Interesting to hear, been in the US for 15 years and had become convinced that living here is more expensive than the U.K but wasn't sure..
FYI - Just got private health Insurance via Aetna, $180.00 a month with a $10,000.00 deductable ... and people complain about the NHS."
Totally agree! I was comparing costs with my parents a couple of weeks ago and a couple of things came to light that were significantly more expensive!
"A couple of them are our own fault...for one thing, we never change mobile phone companies so we're paying an exorbitant $180/month for 2 lines. (God, I can't wait to get a pay as you go!). In our area there's only one cable/internet and electric/gas company so those are horrible too: $160/month for the most basic cable package and typically $250+/month for electric and gas. My parents pay about half of that for much better service.
And that's before we even start on health/dental care..."
"Yes, that's the biggest killer....we've got very good health insurance from the wife's job, but it still costs us $400+ a month and we're seriously in the hole for bills when our littlest one was born 6 weeks early and had to spend 3 weeks in NICU.
Everything else I guess is pretty variable by region as well as season, which affects the cost far more in the US than I ever noticed it doing in the UK, bar salary and cost of housing/rent, everything else seemed fairly consistent and the seasons had far less impact on your budgeting."
"If you get healthcare through your company and only pay a portion, it might cost the same to be private in both countries. But not if you are self-employed as I am and pay the whole cost of your insurance ($1,400 a month for two people). In that case, private coverage in the UK is much cheaper.
Utilities cheaper but bad service? I pay an average of $800 a month right now - for the rates they charge in the UK, they can crap on my head and I'd still be happy It's not like here I get a cheery and helpful service rep and a plethora of choices.
Property taxes (aka council tax) in my area are $12,000 a year and up. Nowhere in England is that pricey."
"As for taxes, I'm sure they are lower in the UK than the US, when you add in out-of-pocket expenditure on health care on the US side of the balance sheet. Again, for a retired person, I'm sure that UK Community Tax is going to be less money than most US Property Taxes."
"Our annual housing tax for a modest 3-bedroomed colonial house in New Jersey (New York Metro area) is currently now $14,300 per year - it was $7000 pa when we moved in during the Summer of 2000. Honestly, that is considered 'low' for our town...! We do however get our rubbish collected twice a week....
When one of our neighbours retired he sold up and moved out of New Jersey, I was amazed when he told me that single people and/or retired people don't get any discount on their housing taxes (they do in the UK) and many choose to retire to States like Delaware, North Carolina and Florida where the housing taxes are cheaper. He left because he didn't want to pay for other people's kids to be educated in such an expensive public school system (although ironically his kids were educated in the local public schools and both he and his wife were teachers).
I also find the cost of electricity to be very high because unlike the UK with a temperate climate, air-conditioning is almost a necessity in the very hot and very humid Summers in NJ. I can't wait to leave the US - hopefully in approx 18 -24 months - and would dread growing old there.
I'd love to hear what people are charged for window cleaning in other parts of the US and Down Under....I was charged a whopping $400 for my windows and insect screens to be cleaned and they won't be cleaned again until the house goes up for sale! My mum in England was horrified, I think she only pays around 15 pounds!"
However I heard a very sad story, a tornado victim teacher, was rushed to the nearest available hospital in a truck, impaled with some ironwork from a falling building whilst saving kids. She is a hero, apparently.
In the rush of things she was taken to a hospital where she doesn't have cover for, she has cover for another hospital, but in the tension of that horrible situation, no time to think about that, she was unconscious.
Now she needs to pay thousands in HUGE medical bills, let alone try and recover from the destruction of her community.
So when the politicians say they will do quote 'everything' to help the victims of this tornado tragedy, I hope it includes help to people in this trap.
Jon
May 24th 2013 | 11:11 pm
#119
Banned
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 553
Re: Spain's insolvent - get your money out!
Thanks of course it was an analogy, don't understand why this term was picked out of my post. I think it is commonly accepted that QE = Printing Money. And of course we live in an electronic world.
Managing money supply has always been in play, but QE is a programme even named as such in the US (QE 1, QE2 etc), which means that they have upped the 'printing' of money aggressively from the norm....
Jon
Managing money supply has always been in play, but QE is a programme even named as such in the US (QE 1, QE2 etc), which means that they have upped the 'printing' of money aggressively from the norm....
Jon
You probably won't get a reply 'till Monday, Cricketman only seems to post during Spanish working hours.
May 25th 2013 | 7:42 pm
#120
BE Positive
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,984
Re: Spain's insolvent - get your money out!
You also mentioned that there was no mention of 'printing' in my links, yes but on the first line of the first link it says Generally, quantitative easing (central banks buying up bonds with newly created money) ........:
Anyway no hard feelings. So putting the verbiage aside and back to the point of PM causing bubbles, the 'great and good' (?) don't agree with my point, even though talk of the end of the US QE programme put the worlds markets in a tailspin
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...imulus-bubbles
With more PM everywhere the fiduciary issue must be huge now, and I wonder why gold hasn't recovered, maybe coz PM has moved people to the markets, hence my point about bubbles as well, I wonder if now is the time to fly to safety or even to gold?
Jon
