Econ

This is very difficult, I personally think they should be allowed to go as far as it takes within reason to prevent the attack, just think of the consequences if something got through the security web. Whatever way they can't win, they get criticized if they do try to prevent an attack and they get criticized if they don't.

Personally I think many peoples lives are more important then one, I think that is the reality of the situation.

rachelk

Problem (or one of them at least) is, under torture, people can say anything.

If you were a terrorist, you'd been arrested, but you knew that other members of your group were about to launch an attack, would you tell the truth and allow the police to stop them?

Or would you give them false information and allow the attack to go ahead?

Econ

That's probably a question for the terrorist, I guess it depends on their devotion to the cause.

rachelk

Why would they tell? What would they have to gain?

Econ

Don't know, I do recollect some IRA terrorists coming free with the info very easily.
(Not from experience I might add, just remember something about this)

Look at it this way:

If someone caught by police is involved in a plot to blow up people and you take them into a room and say, now look Paddy, Mohammad, Xavier or whatever, what is all this bomb plot about? I don't think you would get much responce, using other methods * might * get a responce. Now we are talking about many peoples lives here, what would you do?

rachelk

If the attack is imminent, you don't have long to hold out. Stall them with some false info.

If the attack is some time off, your comrades have time to change their plans in case you reveal info under torture.

But in fact my original question - how far should they be allowed to go - was aimed more at Lee8 who had voiced the strongest opinion against the alleged actions of the police in this case. Your previous comment about the Brasilian was what prompted me to ask it.

Econ

I might be able to pre-empt the answer here... give them a lounger, a beer, a play station and an internet connection then wait until a bomb goes off to see if they are guilty first...... OK, that's unfair, maybe I will let lee answer it....

lee8

Well one point would be that whilst not every suspect is a moral citizen, not all are criminals, and not all police officers in Spain are criminals, some are abusing the system.

There`s no sound to this vid, I`m basing my points on the reports of the incident.

I gave an example, thats all.



Ok we`ll get back now to facts.

Here this story states the EU recommended the police install camera`s back in 2005 after receiving 197 complaints in the EU Court of Human rights.

http://www.theolivepress.es/2007/06/...lice-stations/

lee8

This is why there are laws in place.

There isn`t any evidence this person is connected to ETA, he was walking along a street, he fitted a suspects description, the officers after asking for ID then took him to a river and drowned him until he was almost passed out, even if he admitted to being a terrorist, that evidence is not valid as it was gained under duress, which is illegal.

Had it been proved he was a terrorist, then fine give him the death penalty, but only once your sure he/she is guilty.

Anybody got any comments about that Basque couple who were tortured by mistake then.

I hope when i visit family in the north I don`t fit the description.

Econ

If you keep your nose clean in life then * generally * you won't have problems.

You mean you are trying to pervert the course of justice?

I refer you to the answer I gave above.

lee8

No but you beat a person for 10 hours they`ll tell you anything to make you stop.

Anti torture techniques taught to people who could be caught and tortured are easily learn`t.

Thats why the CIA used the poly graph and then drugs.

Its been proven that information gained during extreme conditions and torture is rarely accurate.

Real world far different from 007 movies.

ETA as well as the IRA and Al queda operate in very small cells without sharing information with each other, members of ETA rarely meet others and information is rarely shared, so as to limit damage when caught.

Torture only serves to scare people, its not allowed and evidence gained cannot be used in a court room.

Econ

I bet it's more accurate than taking them into a room and asking them a couple of questions they won't answer, tell us lee, how would you handle the above situation by rachelk?

lee8

The evidence that was provided when these officers were arrested.

rachelk

Pardon?

lcortez

The points made about the usefullness of information obtained under torture,are well made, numerous studies made since the Vietnam war,have shown that approx 60% of info gathered using this method is useless
Which,of course is one of the reasons we in the West now use various drugs to obtain our information (which,in turn allows us to say we dont use torture).