rachelk

But you can't put those kind of conditions on whether or not the police should treat someone that way. If they have a suspect, time is of the essence. By they time they verify that he is, indeed a terrorist, it might be too late.

rachelk

Undoubtedly.

OK, so do we justify torturing the family members of suspected terrorists then?

If we justify the torture of the suspects themselves on the basis that it might help to elicit useful info, and we agree that torturing their loved ones is more likely to get that info, then why not?

Econ

Again, I don't support torture tactics but:

Yes, but he might, when a lot of lives are at risk, * might * no matter how small, is better than nothing to save innocent lives.

thank goodness you guys aren't looking afte the security of the country

lee8

Here is my bit.

Information is unlikely to be useful to the enemy.

As in the pilots who were abused by Iraqi`s in the gulf war, there infomation was useless to the Iraqi`s.

Any basic soldier knows nothing of use to an enemy, as all soldiers are Mushrooms.

Now the people who know the information don`t go near the enemy, so the enemy use Spies or Surveillance.

Special Forces are trained to deal with torture techniques, but everybody has a limit.

And information is limited.

The IRA never operated in large groups, one cell would operationally know the others location or plans.

The only purpose torture does is mind games, the US didn`t release those pictures of Iraqis by accident, its all part of a bigger mind game.

Igor wasn`t only tortured for information.

lcortez

Do's this mean you agree with torture if on a truncated timetable?

rachelk

No - in that case the suspect would know he wouldn't have long to put up with it and could delay by giving false info.

Torture does not get reliable info.

lee8

No the EU have been investigating Human rights abuses since they got a report from the European Union Court of Human Rights who received 197 complaints of abuse in Spain in 2005.

Econ

Personally no, but then I don't have to protect millions of people, nor do you so we thankfully will never have to deal with the situation... hopefully. If this doesn't stop you will be asking me if Mars was at risk what would I do

rachelk, I think you need to think about the original question you asked, and then think of a way of dealing with the situation, I'm still not sure if you would stand by.. or actually try and do something.

lcortez

Thanks for that,have just found and downloaded a copy
Having skim read it,it would appear that I may have to retract some of my earlier statements as it would appear that there is very definatly some feeling in the security service that prisoner abuse is ok

rachelk

I don't have an answer, sometimes the questions are interesting in themselves without necessarily having easy answers.

It raises the question of why, how, and under what circumstances, we justify the use of torture.

If it's purely a case of getting urgent information by whatever means appropriate, then family members would be fair game. But even those who would justify the torture of suspects would balk at the torture of their families.

So it can't simply be about any means necessary to obtain information, there are other factors to consider.

So, if we don't want to torture family members, which would be more likely to get results, but we can justify the torture of suspects themselves, less likely to give results, it makes me wonder what exactly is the aim of the torture. Is it really just about getting information?

lee8

The US have been debate this since 9/11.

Evidence is hard to gain as its illegal.

But from the cases that have been heard in the states, psychological tactics seem to have worked far greater than physical torture.

The French in Algeria admitted they used physical techniques without much luck.

Evidence for Psychological tactics come from Vietnam and have shown good results.

The only problem is it can depend on the tactics used by the other side.The Vietnamiese may just not have cared that much about divulging information.

Tactics used by Terrorist seem to suggest that an individual doesn`t contain information of any value.If you have a person who isn`t concerned that they could be killed by the bomb there making, and that there willing to die for the cause it may prove very difficult to call there bluff and make them sing like a canary.

Having said that there is evidence that the Spanish use torture with some success is that when in the media a suspect is caught, there has always been further suspects found and arrested.

But there still not winning, ETA is still active, by torturing people there simply confirming to the youth that Spain is a big bad Fascist state.

lee8

I`ve gained both views with ETA as I have a cousin who has been imprisoned for
being an ETA youth member, he was caught storing weapons.

I also have a friend of the wife who is married to a Basque Police Officer.

They were both at my wedding, on the bus to the night club some of the Basque`s side started sing anti fascist songs and insulting the police.

When i was about to intervene and start insulting people I was promptly told to sit down and shut up.

You cannot start upsetting some people who are connected, and this Basque copper knew he was in the wrong place and had to take it.

They didn`t know he was a Basque officer so had i intervened and told them he was there It could have been a problem.

They were family who didn`t know him, he wasn`t from the town and Basque Police don`t work near the town they live.

Econ

There is a good chance of a terrorist having some important information, taking it that they might be an assumed guilty party in a terrorist situation then I guess they would be looked upon as fair game, no matter how small a chance of getting any information it would be at least a chance more than not getting it (I guess security forces are trained to know what is worth a lead and what is not) and if lives are at risk then tough measures probably need to be taken no matter how slim or unconventional they might seem.
A family member is totally outside of this and would be considered an innocent... a totally different situation. If family members where tortured 'in a Northern Europe anyway' there would be major repercussions, even if extream situations existed, this is not to say that situation has not existed or happened.

These tactics where and 'am sure still' are used in other countries (even times) because they where known to be an affective means of torture.

featherbum

I am Basque, and very proudly so but also consider myself Spanish, as the after all the basque country is IN spain.

I have never feared being taken to a guardia civil station for questioning, and i have DEFINATELY never felt abused by Spain.
Noone Basque i know (and that is a lot of people) has ever felt scared or abused by Spain either.

But it seems to me the word basque is being used above in a very generalised manner to talk of the 'eta supporting' basque people, who are a small minority, and they very different from any other basque person.

Just being basque doesnt mean we take any part, or most importantly agree, with what eta does.

lee8

Thanks for the input.

From the people I`ve Spoken to in Bilbao, many would disagree with you.

Having said that it is very difficult to get many to Speak about politics unless their firm Independence supporters.

Do you know anybody with there own Basque passports ?