bobd22

FOM is not only used by the likes of the majority in this forum , it also affects movement of goods. That is an issue for quite a lot businesses and small traders from what I have seen on discussions re brexit. Brexit is done and we are where we are with it and it's affects. However that does not mean that there can't be some future negotiations to make it work better. I personally think that at least Sunak has improved relationships with EU countries unlike BoJo who just wanted to antagonise them.

rbs_gb

Just reflecting that I started this thread to highlight that all the urban myths about UK nationals that so many people (me included) were repeating about folks being caught/fined/barred from the EU for overstaying Schengen rules are just not supported by the facts about Spain and various other countries. 106 posts later, nobody has been able to give a single case that this has happened in Spain.

bobd22

I can't find any from my searches. There have been a number from Sweden and Netherlands mainly Sweden largest number. Spain though has ejected other third country nationals. I know UK is big for tourism in Spain but really Schengen rules won't affect that for most people. I can't understand though why Spain would not want to remove those that are living under the radar and many will have done so for years. If they don't comply with the Schengen rules they won't be complying with majority of other rules re taxes driving licences etc. I also don't see how applying standards such as this for one third country but not another doesn't breach discrimination and Human Rights laws? Of course the other issue is if one is living under the radar or failing to comply with Schengen rules a simple administrative change possibly an e mail to border officials could change that immediately. Problem is one never knows what's going on and may not find out untill they present at border control and that would be too late. We ensured we complied re residency and other legislation as it gives us peace of mind . It's down to individuals and Spanish authorities how they choose to deal with it. However anyone caught out needn't look for sympathy from me. Same if some organisations brings a case against Spain for discriminating because it seems clear they are doing that by ignoring Brits breaking rules but removing other nationalities.

rbs_gb

Totally, agree and as you say, the rules are the rules and open to be implemented at any time. For my part, I've always tried to be a law abiding citizen, just working around whatever rules there are, made by whichever body implements them. I can't help but think that the Spanish have simply been pragamatic and have avoided being branded "the bad guys" if they were to have enforced the rules earlier. To me it makes sense to for them to wait until the EU acts as a block, and then they can genuinely say to any illegal stayers "We've given you plenty of time to get yourselves legal, now we have to enforce the EU rules".

bobd22

Yes I think you are right at some point Spain will implement these rules either by choice or because EU says they must or face penalties themselves. Whether that time is being left for the much mentioned ETIAS or given delays before that is in force. We must wait and see.

Moses2013

But isn't it the case that most people receive fines rather than being expelled? https://www.euronews.com/travel/2022...stay-the-limit
It's no different in Germany and many Turkish have received fines but were not expelled unless they try it again and again.That said, deportation is rarely enforced for a visitor who isn’t attempting to work illegally or claim benefits. You will most likely be told you must leave as soon as possible.

Fines for staying over 90 days in the EU. Overstaying your limit in the EU also means risking a fine. This can be levied along with other penalties and the amount depends on the country.In Italy, you might have to pay between €5,000 and €10,000. In Germany, a fine of up to €3,000 is possible while in Spain it can range from €500 to €10,000.

rbs_gb

Just given my creative side some space:



NOTE: The executioner graphic is from the 1980s, with the text and layout done this morning. Hope it brings a few smiles!

Ronnyone

plus anyone who volunteers to leave won't be recorded. So we have no idea how many people are warned. I really don't think we can assume that Spain doesn't care - plenty of people are asked questions when I have been queuing so obviously officers are doing something and not waving everyone through.

bobd22

Yes your point and the one posted by moses2013 are very valid as we just don't know. It may be that people are not only fined but blocked from entry for x amount of time if they continue to ignore rules rather be required to leave. Only thing is people have commented on the thread that they have personal knowledge people where nothing has been done at all for overstaying. But yes requiring to leave or refusing entry is one penalty there are others that we dont know of.

Moses2013

Exactly, the first measure will always be that you are asked to leave. Anybody who then decides to stay will likely be fined and I doubt the Spanish authorities don't want the money.

rbs_gb

I put the source data very early on in the thread. According to the EU, these are the classifications included by the Policia Nacional in the statistical reporting.
Presentation of the data source(s)/national registers/Source Data
Third-country nationals refused at border NATIONAL POLICE
Third-country nationals found to be illegally present NATIONAL POLICE
Third-country nationals who are subject to an obligation to leave NATIONAL POLICE
Third-country nationals effectively returned by type of return and citizenship NATIONAL POLICE
Third-country nationals effectively returned to a third-country by type of return and citizenship NATIONAL POLICE

If you think this source data does not include fines, great, give some details of real cases. If the sum of cases against UK nationals in 2 years is zero, and includes "Third-country nationals found to be illegally present" there is still no evidence.

DLC

I would have thought people being refused entry from Gibraltar would have shown up, maybe it's easier to bark at visitors than fill in the paperwork.

There might also be something that wouldn't show up, which would be overstaying detected on the way out and a warning along the lines of "you've overstayed three months, don't come back within the next year because you won't get in".

But in any case, none of us have overstayed (or at least overstayed and caught) so none of us knows what happens when you are caught, and none of us has better info than Eurostat.

The only conclusion we can draw is it's better to choose Spain than Sweden for a holiday.

rbs_gb

That's priceless! Made me smile! More to the collection of anecdotes. Plus one from me for your conclusion.

Ronnyone

Of course there is always another interpretation of there not being any recorded figures.. No one has overstayed!!!!

Red Eric

That thought had occurred to me - or at least that no one who had done had crossed the Spanish external Schengen border. But there's that geezer Barrie knows who's done so and got the stamps to prove it, allegedly.

I think we're mixing 2 distinct scenarios here in any case, by talking both about people who've allegedly been living in Spain for years and potential shorter term visitors who breach the 90/180 but apparently don't get pulled for it. The latter does surprise me, I must admit. Maybe they treat breaches by visa waiver countries' citizens differently to those who need a visa and overstay?

One of the things which does strike me about the long-termers is that EU member states operated 2 different systems when it came to Brexit-related residence documents. Some (like Spain and Portugal) operated a declaratory system, which didn't require UK nationals to apply for a new status, the rest a constitutive system where status would be lost unless applied for by a set deadline. In the declaratory system countries, not having residence documents is far less of a problem than in constitutive, because as long as you could prove that you'd been resident prior to the end of the transition period, you could still acquire the necessary document as you wouldn't necessarily have committed any offence which warranted deportation. Failures, possibly, on various administrative matters, which we all obviously take very seriously, but maybe something the more benevolent regimes wouldn't sling people out for. Plus, anybody staying in country and never crossing the external Schengen border is highly unlikely to be detected as an overstayer provided they don't fall foul of the suthorities on some other matter.