Dear me.

Just one point on that I know quite a few people in fact most of the expats that I do know and yes they may have residencia. However the majority who believe they are more Spanish than the actual native Spanish people have never submitted any income tax return. When I tell them they should even if it shows no tax they just either look blank or say I don't know what I am talking about. Now these people are there full time using all Spanish services and usually complaining about illegal imigrants in the UK that don't speak English!

I am a relatively newcomer to Spain but with respect I have taken aboard lots of advice from this forum but equally taken a viewpoint on such advice and then with my wife arrived at a decision.

However and it does not matter where you are in the world but you have to integrate and follow their rules. If not then not the end of the world. Live with it.

Nevertheless if your mindset tells you 'what the hell I could not care less' and you have a pre-determined approach in such matters and will not be persuaded or at the very least listen to a contrasting argument still not the end of the world. Live with it.

Oxygen is in short supply this forum on this subject is giving the very thing that keeps it going. Turn off the tap (with respect)

There is an mixed opinion on the rights and wrongs so - Live with it.

However last point I intend when we return to play the game according to their rules. I may not like them but I have made a decision to return to Spain and not to France where I lived for years.

And if Albir Tom would wish to cross the border to France it is so different there and by sheer French bureaucracy then I am afraid La profonde France would be up to date more so than Spain.

My choice.

Right. Didn't want to post this until I actually checked with a couple who we know of in Lepe.

They have been there almost 3 years and regard the residency 90 days rule as farcical. It is pointless in their case as they travel the very short trip into Portugal regularly ( shopping/ friends etc) so technically they are never 90 days in Spain.

Didn't pry re tax rule (180 day) but certainly they rightly ignore the 90 day stipulation.

The Spanish government have stated that they intend to track down and punish people who live in Spain and work in Gibraltar who are not registered for tax in Spain.

These people leave Spain generally 5 times a week.

To this point they are now intending to put iris scanners and fingerprint scanners at the Gib frontier.

You may not agree with the rule, but it is the law. Perhaps it should be changed to cumulative as in the tax rule.
Why delay posting till you checked with your friends?
Checking with a couple who ignore it doesn't mean they are right- they aren't
The tax rule is 183 cumulative days in Spain.
The authorities may never pull you up on it, but there again, they just might........

I CLEARLY stated that I didn't ask about their tax arrangements. As regards the Residency 90 days -they are technically not breaking any rules

You said they "rightly ignored the 90 day stipulation" they clearly didn't ignore it as they nip into Portugal before the 90 days are up.
Re 183 days- just correcting you.

No I didn't mean it that way.

My point is they are " technically" right to ignore it as it doesn't apply- as after their regular trips the clock starts again on their 90 days

Frankly, the registration on the list of EU foreigners is a bit of a joke.

It was decided to implement it when the new EU directive on residency came into force. Spain decided to take the option of asking for people to register and to prove income and health cover. They could have opted out like the UK.

If you read the law carefully (both the EU directive and the corresponding Spanish law) there is very little they can do if you decide not to register (apart from a small fine) and if you don't have the necessary income or health coverage, they can refuse to give you the green registration certificate but they cannot throw you out of the country unless they can prove you are a terrorist or have Ebola!

That said, if you want to reside in Spain then the absence of this certificate can present problems. For example, depending how each region interprets the rules, it may not be possible to sign on the Padron without it which could prevent you enrolling your children in school or buying a car.

For the hundreds of thousands of expats who have holiday homes in Spain and choose to spend more than 90 days in Spain, it would be ludicrous to insist on registration. There is little or no benefit to them doing so and anyway, by leaving the country for a day, the clock would start ticking again. If they did register they would be obliged to de-register on their return to their home country.

If they all followed the rules the system would collapse within weeks, which would be crazy.

I think the Spanish and other EU countries have a much more pragmatic approach to these sorts of rules - if they are demonstrably stupid then they just ignore them. It seems that the only people that get wound up about them are the Brits who don't understand the concept of pragmatism - if it is a rule then it MUST be obeyed.

Now, tax residency is a completely different question. It is absolutely clear that a stay of more than 183 days in one calendar year (not necessarily consecutive) results in you being DEEMED to be tax resident - no silly forms to fill in, if Hacienda think you are tax resident under these rules YOU ARE!

OK - so what if you choose to ignore that and fail to declare your world wide income and pay any tax due? Well, probably nothing initially but if for some reason you get caught out the consequences could be very expensive.

Many long term residents do not declare their income, often because they are paying UK tax on it and erroneously think they dont have to. Even UK government pensioners are now required to do so.

It often gets expensive when capital gains tax gets involved and they cannot claim the very significant exemptions that are available to tax residents. The same applies to IHT - the rules can be very different regarding the family home if you are non resident.

It is entirely possible to stay under the tax radar for a very long time but there is always the risk that something will cause Hacienda to take a closer look. It is down to the individual to decide how he wants to deal with these issues.

It is up to the authorities to decide how they manage the non conformists - it is certainly not for forum members to do so, even if they severely disagree with this sort of attitude and quite understandably make their views felt.

Dondurma-I don't know why you keep labouring the point.
If you don't want to follow the rules,don't, but stop endlessly arguing about it.
If you are called to account you can't complain.

Fred.

Thank you so much for your common sense, intelligent, well thought out clear explanation and view on the 90 day residency rule.- this follows nicely my post re friends in Lepe.

Classic line "It seems that the only people that get wound up about them are the Brits who don't understand the concept of pragmatism - if it is a rule then it MUST be obeyed."

I 101% agree tax issues are a different ball game

Thanks again Fred

I think Fred and Neptuno have nailed it (with respect) the rules are as writ large if you follow them fine if not then consequences are yours.

Again no one can ever argue that I am an angel I am not. However all those years ago when I arrived in France we engaged into their system for we were living in France not the UK. If someone said you needed that form you delivered it. Then into their health service and even today and for reasons I will not bore you with I am still in their system pay my tax there as well as top up insurance. That will change when I move to Spain in February 2015.

Their country their rules if I do not like them then before moving I should have thought it through.

I did not bother with either 90 days or 183 days for I lived there my house was there and if my mens rea was telling me to avoid I should not have lived there.

You can spend hours over the minutiae I for one will not be looking at the calendar and having a note some mornings on my computer telling me to leave.

In the UK, a day in tax terminology means a day and a night. Is the same true in Spain i.e. would you have to spend a day and a night in Portugal in order to reset the clock?

Good point invino.

But as has been said the rule is probably that much ignored by the Spanish authorities that it hardly matters- after all in the Ayamonte area how can they even tell if you nipped over the bridge at 11pm for an hour or two if you were there just for the afternoon!!!