bil

Talk to the sad bastards who obsess about getting a place at the golf club so that they can keep up with the Joneses.

For them, class is very much alive.

I think you are wrong. It's possible to see it quite clearly sometimes.

Dick Dasterdly

I wouldn't consider keeping up with the Jones as evidence that the class system still exists.

Its simply something that exists in the minds of all those who look on materialistic wealth as the most important factor in their lives.

There will always be such ppl in any society, unless of course you believe in Chairman Maos little red book.

HBG

If you live in a monarchy, the concept of a class system is fairly obvious.

But on much lower levels it gets a bit confusing. Has it got anything to do with wealth? Is the lottery winner suddenly elevated into a higher class? Can you move up the class ladder through intelligence and hard work?

Can you break the cycle of class established by privileged birth?

We're miles behind the US with our long-established aristocracy still ruling the roost, but I would rather bow to an idiot in ermine than that vulgar Donald Trump.

I try not to bow at all.

steviedeluxe

Actually Spain's debt isn't as bad as the UKs (or the USA). In fact the deficit is coming down in Spain, whereas despite the cuts in the UK the deficit is still going up
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...t-half-1-.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/e...borrowing.html

But the debt premium that Spain (and Italy) have to pay on their debt is at record levels. It's down to sentiment. And if the Hooray Henrys that control the hedge funds and money markets decide that Spain and Italy can't pay, they push up the interest to make sure it's even more difficult for them to pay. Not helped by the ratings agencies either. The US, which has threatened to default on its debts (and came very close to doing so this week) remains on A+++ status

I'm told the reason is because the US and the UK can print their way out of recession. Well they can print, which is why the Pound can only buy 1.14 Euros instead of 1.45 (or whatever it was). But there is speculation that the Euro central bank will have to print, in order to allow the same cheap credit to spain, Italy, Ireland etc. So we may see the value of the Euro slip against the pound. Interesting times indeed.

Domino

I know - it hurts the back and no one notices anyway

agoreira

Indeed it is, close to 7%, whereas the UK's is at it's lowest for ages, 2.76%, that's a huge difference, and foreign investors are happy to take on UK's debt. It's not so much the size of your debt, but your ability to pay it back. When Ireland, Greece and Portugal reached the debt premium Spain and Italy is almost at, we know what happened to them.

bil

Marry into a title, you get elevated, but may still get looked down on by the nobs.

I agree with the not bowing concept. When I used to train people, I'd tell them that when the customer with a title comes to the door, you say "Lord Whatsit? I've come to sweep the chimney, whatever." But thereafter you address him as tho you were speaking to anyone else. Polite, but not deferential.

"If he demands you address him as 'Lord Whatsit' when addressing him, tell him that's fine, and how many would he like, because we WILL charge 1.50 for every time we are obliged to address him like that."

bil

Whether you believe in a book or not, they will always be there.

Don't be silly man, of course there is class. Here's a row of council houses, all renting, none with jobs, all on benefit.

Over there is a row of detached, owner occupied houses, they all have two cars, jobs, nannies etc etc.

Would anyone query that one set were clearly middle class and the other working class? (even tho they don't work)

Dick Dasterdly

Yes, when you see those in the council houses on benefits with two nice cars in the drive, out enjoying themselves most of the time, not a care in the world ,all their kids dressed in the latest expensive designer crap, whilst those in the fancy houses are too mean to go out and buy a pint, spend most of their money trying to impress the neighbours and may well have a king size morgage for all their exterior flash appearance.

As you say how do you call those on benefits in council houses working class, when many of them have never done a days work in their lives, yet they still lead the lifetyle THEY CHOOSE and are mostly quite content with it ?

Its much like classing gypos as working class, though most of them happily CHOOSE their own lifestyle, have no wish to join the rat-race, and get by on benefits and whatever else happens their way and quite a lot of them are surprisingly well off though they dont believe in bank accounts or flashing it all off for the world to see.

Yes different types of ppl, living different lifestyles, but BY CHOICE, and much different to the upstairs,downstairs mindset when those downstairs had NO CHOICE AT ALL, and which hardly exists anymore, as most of the toffy nosed twits have long ago had to sell up and join the rest of us commoners.

Their will always be different types of ppl.in all societies everywhere, but can you truly call it class difference when its of their OWN CHOOSING, rather than having it forced upon them as was the case in the real class system.

Your thinking is of a typical left-wing mindset, whereby you desperately need the now almost non existant old class system to still exist, in order to play politics.

jimenato

Ha yes! I've noticed that it's usually lefties who bang on about class. It gives them something else to moan about and lefties love to moan.

Rosemary

Lefties, what a quaint old fashioned term, apart from the tabloids it went out with McCarthy did it not. Anyway a bit before my time.

Graham

bil

Yawn-o. This has nothing to do with politics, and everything to do with observation. Ignoring pikeys, which I class with things found under flat rocks in anoxic swamps, class has changed from being clear cut divisions, into a spectrum, in other words the divisions have been smeared. If we grade from bottom of the working class at 1 to the upper middle at 10, you can't put a knife in between numbers 5&6 and say "Everything below this is working class, and everything above it is middle class."

What you can say is that 1&2 are working, and 9& 10 are middle.

Inbetween those numbers there are working class with middleclass attributes, and middleclass with working class attributes.

You cannot say that there are no middle class, and you cannot say there are no working class. Neither can you say precisely where the boundary is.

That doesn't mean it isn't there, it's just hidden in the middle ground.

Oh yeah, back when the social boundaries were much more fixed, NO-ONE had much choice in what they were.

It could be that one day the smeared area will stretch from top to bottom, but there will always be upper class, because that is defined differently.

licinius

I can't remember the exact figure so I'll try googling for it later but apparantly the entire world's debt is approx three times the entire amount of money in the world

I'm not sure how you can borrow money that doesn't exist but then that would explain the banks nature where they borrow in order to lend.

bobd22

I think I would agree with this. Doesn't seem to matter these days how people have got their money just that they have it footballers pop stars etc it seems to be more about alleged celebrity status rather than class status these days. Probably not helped by Blair and the way he courted the celebrity's and wealthy (or anyone who he thought would give him and the witch more wealth). The so called working class have been taken in by sucessive governments, buy property don't rent. Council property sold of what's left poorly maintained hence sink estates. Buy buying they control your spending i.e. 15% + interest rates in 80's 90's we struggle on thinking agh but property going up we are getting richer middle class not working class house owner etc, inheritance to leave the kids. Then 2007 prices falling can't sell if you want to and as for inheritance not if you need care in older age that you thought you had paid for in National Insurance. Oh no sell your house to pay for it and sleep in the next bed to Mrs Miggins who stayed on the sink estate and paid no National Insurance. Like I say we have been taken for a ride.

bil

Have and have not?

I did once read a delightful article that predicted that the UK would evolve into three classes, marked by the languages they spoke.

The upper class would speak Posh.
The middle class would speak Computer.
The lower class would speak Narmean.