Jon-Bxl

Well the next day will be historic for the UK (and Europe.)

People will vote based on all sorts of criteria. For me personally it is easier to remain.

However when I think of my country .... and when I put that first- I want us to leave.

If we Brexit, I believe we will have a 'messy divorce'. It will be a hassle and there will be lots problems to sort out. It will cost us.

But IMO sometimes you have to divorce, go through all the hassles of the divorce (kids, finances, home etc etc) and eventually emerge free and unencumbered by the previous relationship... And (maybe) ready to find a new and better life partner.

IMO our current 'marriage' has us involved with a partner who takes our money, doesn't properly report how they spent it, is possibly corrupt, breaks agreements we made together (eg Maastricht, Lisbon etc), controls us with their clique of unelected buddies who have feathered their nests with guaranteed salaries for life, with guaranteed final salary pensions.... And these execs who pay nearly NO TAX!!!

Even the people who are further down the pyramid pay different taxes, that say another person (even from the EU) eg living in Brussels. Once your wife/husband are in the cliquey club, he/she is sorted.. For life... And so has less reason to listen to you.

How can they implement tax regulations eg stopping all the big companies avoiding tax, when they are doing it themselves.... Paid by us.

So when these big companies say its better to remain, they are right, its better for them personally. But for the country? Bigco's have a huge vested interest. Bigco's have a history of rule avoidance and self interest... And non payment of taxes. Starbucks/Google etc etc etc are doing OK paying less tax nationally than many small businesses.

We pay for that!! We also pay for Strasbourg! What a mess ...moving people and truckloads of documents between 5star hotels, expense accounts, posh restos etc.

Our husband/wife is splurging OUR cash and making hay whilst they can... Ignoring us ... as we have less say than before.

I live in Brussels and have seen these excesses and I think its time to move on.

Even Remain want to reform Europe and agree its a mess. But what can we really do with 1/28 of the voting power. We had a golden opportunity when Cameron went to 'negotiate' the 'special deal' a few months ago, and what did we ACTUALLY 'reform'...?

Also Cameron didn't want Junckers as one of the many presidents (who want a federal Europe).... He failed ...

No reform when we hold an ace card of an upcoming referendum, means IMO we gave less reforming power in the future if we vote to remain.

Time to move on ...

We will p%&s off the political elites, but we can remain friends with our European people, trade with them ... etc.

So there is my soapbox.....

Jon

mikelincs

I suspect your soapbox will not be supporting the winner then.

Jon-Bxl

You might be right, but let's see what happens tomorrow. Your statement is just an (educated) guess.

I'll of course go with the democratic result, and really hope there is a good turnout to support the final result. Which as you can see is pro Brexit for me.

Jon

olivia

You sum up our opinion on the whole thing perfectly! If Cameron had done a better deal perhaps remain would be stronger. We spend 6 months here and wonder how we might be adverely affected? Perhaps even blamed? Also just about to pay for an expensive purchase here. Remain will strengthen Stirling we are told! We are for out but our young professional family are for in. I read in The Mail of a remain MP telling his/her campaigners who were going out on the streets not to waste their time on grey haired old men. Was this you?

mikelincs

Boris is the leading 'leave' person, BUT, the rest of his family are 'remain' supporters.

Sam Greenfield

I really hope we stay in tbh - i'm not comfortable with this load of idiots running our country going it alone - at the min i just don't think we are a strong enough nation to stand alone - plus if it goes tits up there isn't a cat in hells chance that they will let us back in - if we remain now we could at some point in the future have another referendum and come out then when we are stronger xxxxx

Jon-Bxl

No it wasn't me

I will say that when the polls for 'Remain' showed an upswing a couple of days ago, after that horrible MP murder - the pound got a boost and was stronger, so getting more euros. But the downside is our exports get more expensive.

Again the bigco's want 'remain' for their reasons, so I am untrusting of their comments to remain, as long as they aggressively avoid taxes etc and also the markets hate uncertainty so the rate changes.

Even inside the EU we have seen huge swings in the rate. I've seen it at around 1.45 around the time many initially bought at CE. Also it was 1.03 ish. Later. At that time French brandy and champers were kept at about the same sterling price, so we bought both in the UK to bring back to the continent!! The booze runs to the continent stopped.

So putting aside personal reasons I still think for the country that after this painful transition we will be better out.

Also both sides agree that thank goodness we never took the Euro. So as a result we have to accept changing rates. As they have been doing for years. So your big purchase may cost more (initially) with a Brexit... Sorry. So that may affect your decision. I personally stick with what I feel is best for the country.

If the polls are to be believed this is close run thing so it looks like whoever wins it will be difficult for a while as there will be a split and the losing side may need time to cool down. In your family there is disagreement... But I'm sure time will sort that.

A close friend of ours is a fully fledged federalist, wrote a newspaper column praising the (failed) EU constitution, that the elite still tried to bring in regardless... And got Blair out of a hole when France/Holland rejected it, by stopping our referendum. He is for Brexit, ironically, as he feels we are a thorn in the side of a federal Europe and he thinks the EU could survive and move faster to federalism even without our massive payment. Other friends are remain and have as strong views as I do, on the other side.

Nothing is certain however and both sides exploit that with fear campaigns and numbers conjured up out of thin air it seems. I have been disappointed with the scaremongering on BOTH sides, and the 'personality driven' campaigns. I've felt 'spoken down to' by both, but in the balance I think Remain have hit us stronger with FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt)

But as mates we agree to disagree, and I hope post referendum we within the UK and within Europe as a whole will remain friends. The political elite will be mad if we leave, but just go to Normandy during the anniversary of the WW2 landings, the outpouring of affection from generations of French is very touching to ALL the old allied forces. Our flags everywhere... The people can still be friends, even when the elites lose.

Jon

mikelincs

VOTING IS NOW OPEN

MikeCol

I'm with you Jon, regards Bryony

shirley and anthony hide

In or out it does not matter.
We are already seeing the beginning of the end of the EU in its present form. This is the end of further EU integration, and the beginning of disintegration. Mass unemployment of the young in the Eurozone.
Greece last year ,with the social unrest against the austerity measures forced on them by the EU. This has not gone away.
We also see the rise of the far right parties in the "richer" EU countries like France and Austria for example. They are very nationalistic and vehemently against Merkels open door policy towards the refugee crisis. Don't just think its just us that are unhappy about the EU. Recent Polls in France and Italy suggest that both those countries would vote to stay in only by a slim majority of 2 to 4 percent. History has a habit of repeating itself. The Roman Empire comes to mind.

MikeJ

I'm a bit sad that this thread has started at this late date on the Ayamonte Club. IMHO one of the attractions of the club has been that it has been largely apolitical. Politics are always devisive. The Club is supposed to be inclusive. Whatever the outcome there will be winners and losers. It is too late to change peoples' minds so all this thread is is simple tribalism. We may regret it later when neighbours no longer speak to one another.

Jon-Bxl

Sorry Mike that this has bothered you, but I don't agree at all, that its 'tribalism'.

For me its all about a really historic moment in our country and as there are a lot of Brits on the AC, its worth a natter, IMO.

I haven't seen any trolling or angry comments so far, so we are all keeping it civilised - in fact one post disagreeing with me, ended in a bunch of kisses (xxx's).

Ive seen much worse on the AC previously on other (significantly lesser) topics. So have you. I cannot see how any of the comments will lead to unneighbourly behaviour... frankly if someone doesn't want to have a drink and chat with me because we disagree on THIS kind of subject, then I am better off without them. As I posted, I have plenty of friends who are remain, and one a total EU federalist, and he is (and always will be) one of our dearest friends, he was one of the 2 witnesses at our wedding.

Anyway its only +/- 6 hours of voting left and then another 8-12 before we know the result ..... and the result will be final.

As I said in my last post, we can all agree to disagree, and still be mates - even when families disagree as one post mentioned. Its not that severe to break friendships and relationships. I think its worth a discussion even at a late stage as its so historic and important.

(BTW you and I agree on many things, .... normally).

See you soon

Jon

AndyS

johnnyone

Not at Ayamonte, but on that basis I shall be drinking by myself down the pub as I am the only inner!
I suspect it shall all be forgotten in a couple of days and whatever the result we shall just get on with it.

amideislas

I suppose the daily mail and express have a lot to do with that perception.

But as a matter of public record, the Eurozone is the world's 2nd largest economy by a narrow margin, and is currently beating the US AND the UK in terms of growth, and the refugee "crisis" has certainly slowed to a snail's pace. But not because of what Germany or France or anyone else did, but because of what the EU did. Perfect? Nothing is, but at least it's under control.

In the end, Europe will be amongst the world's heavy hitters, whether it's perfect or not. Britain can choose to be an influential member of it, or simply become "Little England. I strongly suspect it will choose the former. For now, anyway.

But even if I'm right, Britain's fear of Europe will only enable it to delay the inevitable. The good news is that once Europe manages to succeed despite Britain's fear of it, Britain will end up with a great divorce deal, unlike what it's shooting for now.