HS2 thread now open.

EU assistance to Spain, the EU and Spain etc need some historical facts to understand the bigger picture. European history is still largely determined by what happened during the first and second world wars and for the purpose of this particular discussion the relationship between the EU super powers Germany, UK (the Allies) and Spain.

Just as now, the struggle was between western capitalism and eastern communism, with strategic Germany right in the middle, just as now.

Spain ended up as neutral under Franco, but in reality it supported Germany and Hitler.

Hitler and Franco have long gone but the empathy between the two countries is obvious in mixed expat areas. I came across it on several occasions today and it makes a pleasant change for the Spanish natural dislike for Moroccans which I find sad. (Apart from my own dislike for the three of them who broke into my house 13 years ago this week).

Well not exactly, as you stated that the purpose of your topic was to reply to my full question "What sort of state would Spain be in now if it had not been dipping it's snout in the EU trough" which you have obviously partly taken out of context.

I don't have the figures but I do know that Spain was by far the biggest EU beneficiary for a good many years and will continue to be a beneficiary for quite a while yet as I understand it.

In addition to considering the large amounts coming in from the EU, my main point, as stated, was to ask how it effected their overall thinking in regard to use of all funds in general and as with some irresponsible youngster, just handed a credit card for the first time after years on a tight budget, did they not stop to do their sums and think properly and plan ahead, which is precisely the charge still being put by the vast majority of the Spanish people towards their own Govt.?

Only 35 billion, no wonder there are loads of unfinished projects. Are you after a mods job then

And most of money was ringfenced - and projects started pre-2007

The 2007-2013 figure is pointless

Not that I agree that Spain shouldn't have got this money

They are the only figures I could get quickly. If you or anyone else can get me earlier ones I would be grateful.

You are correct I only answered a part of your question, and I shall put that right.

Where would Spain be now if it hadn't had EU assistance ? Poorer.

I was only restricting what I was going to reply to. I didn't stop Ami and Cricketman having their ding-dong about the Yanks, did I ?

Winter eh ? I've got €25 on with Rugbymatt that you'll be long gone before that.

I bet you have....what would you do for entertainment then I would have thought RM would have bet the same way as you...how would that work?

Simple answer ,eh ?
Have you seen the figures regarding Spanish debt ?

Granted the infrastructure is better than it would have been, but would they have run the country in such an irresponsible manner and got so deep in the mire if they'd continued plodding gently along as they were with guaranteed income from tourism and agriculture ?

I love this "only got 35 billion", in those 6 years we'd have made a net contribution of around €54 billion.

Yeh, peanuts, eh ?

Though maybe they thought it was only Monopoly money judging by the way they threw it around.

As I explained in my first post, this was money gladly given by nations that had been in receipt of assistance from the US themselves.

I think a large percentage of the populations of those nations might be inclined to disagree with your "gladly given" comment.

However as it was handed over by a dictatorial organisation that has lost touch regarding the meaning of democracy, we were all expected just to cough up and sit back and say nowt.

If you drive (as I have from) Malaga to Alicante with a stop over in La Manga you will travel on miles of beautiful empty roads built with EU money that are completely redundant.

I maintain that the Spain's regional debt problem comes from its system of autonomous regional government. Allowing the regions to borrow on the open markets to fund vanity projects that the people don't need and can't afford.

Spain went on a spending spree, once poor and suddenly offered billions it couldn't handle it. No different from an individual. How many pop stars, footballers from shite backgrounds suddenly earn a fortune and then their life turns to poo.

Spain as a democracy is a young country. Lot's of guile is needed to live under communism and habits die hard.

Spain needs to take control of its regions, get rid of its powerful, albeit elected feudal mayoral system and wake up to the challenges of the 21st century.