two tubes of toothpaste

Dick went off thread on the Ukraine thread, acknowledged it, and apologised for it.

I wanted an opportunity to reply so I opened this thread.

At the end of the Second World War, the Marshall Plan was introduced to Europe to help the countries left destitute regenerate more quickly. This was due to the immense generosity of the American people. Spain was not included.

Did the Europeans have their snouts in the United States trough ?

When Spain joined the EU, the nations were now more than able to stand on their own two feet, and willingly extended their largesse to Spain in a similar fashion.

So how can this be Spain "dipping their snouts in the EU trough" ?

Yes this donation of aid would have saved European taxpayers a huge amount of money if it had not been made, but doesn't that miss the whole original intention of the act ?

Dick Dasterdly

I readily acknowledge that the original intention was well meant, with Spain still lagging behind most of Europe after the Franco years.

However it is the end result which I question ?

Compare it for instance to a guy who has plodded steadily along in his 9 to 5 job, then suddenly come up on the lottery and lost all sense of proportion, reason and common sense, blowing money like there was no tomorrow.

Then suddenly he woke up one day and found not only that it had all gone but he was deep in the mire as well and no longer knew how to face the consequences.

Whereas if he had just kept plodding along he would never have been rich, but there again never missed what he never had or lost all sense of reason and common sense.

cricketman

Everybody in the Western world has had access to extremely cheap credit over the past 15 years - and a lot of people have made bad decisions

I dont understand why you only think that Spanish people shouldnt have been allowed access to this? They are no more indebted than people of any other nation

cricketman

Really?

The Marshall Plan was a masterstroke in foreign policy. In exchange for long term loans, the US got access to the markets of the whole of Europe and were at the centre of "rebuilding and reeducating" German after the Nazi's were overthrown

They made tons of money from this which helped them become the world's superpower, and their access to the media and advertising help them introduce American culture and products to the European masses

This strategy they then followed in Korea, and even have tried to do in Afghanastan and Iraq in recent years

There is no generosity involved, except to themselves and their own pockets. It is the most impressive example of emperialism that the world has ever seen

EMR

What ever you may think of the Marshall plan , the alternative also under consideration was to turn Germany into an agricultural nation, to strip it of all its remaining industry and assets.
The prime motivation behind Marshall was to combat communism.

cricketman

Well, that wasn't the only alternative, of course it wasn't

And yes, the battle was to combat communism, because communism destroys markets.

The point I am making is the US (and most countries) always thinks about money first. "Generosity" has never come into play

steviedeluxe

Actually I think CM hits upon an important point, particularly with the recent history of "bail-outs"
These bail-outs were not charity. The people making the loans were charging interest. Also, they were intended to avoid greater losses - if national banks had gone under, or the government was unable to pay bills, the resulting loss of confidence would have collapsed most western economies, Germany included (a lot of their banks were quietly bailed out too).

Domino

As a country that remained outside the conflict Spain never received a penny from the original Marshall Plan.
Whilst a worthy idea by the GDY's the Marshall Plan for both Europe and the Far East created huge anomalies. This is why Germany and Japan, the instigators of war came out of it the best and were turned into industrial giants. Interestingly the UK and France received far more than any other country but what did they do with the money

cricketman

Germany and Japan received heavy investment from the US because

1. Many felt that Hitler came into power because Germany was sanctioned too heavily for their role in WW1. A starving population votes for fascists/communists. They didn't want to make this mistake again
2. The US wanted to have a role in educating the nations of Germany and Japan so that they believe the US doctrine rather that a fascist/communist doctrine
3. US investment leads to US profits!

amideislas

I agree with that, except for your tired old notion that somehow Americans only engage in greed and evil intent, and only Americans invest with the notion of receiving some gain from it. So I fixed #2 and #3 for you.

Profit isn't an evil. It's a necessary part of any business, run by any nationality. Americans aren't the exception, but they are pretty good at it, and it's actually encouraged over there. We could use a bit more of that over here. Unfortunately, our system is more inclined to discourage prosperity than promote it.

Some feel better believing what we find harder to achieve isn't worth it in the first place, which only teaches us that it's only thieves and criminals that prosper (like those yanks, for example). Explains a lot about why prosperity is so elusive for us, and why we love to hate those who do.

cricketman

Last time I looked, the whole of Western Europe was very prosperous. Certainly if you compare it to the post-WW2 period

Meanwhile, living standards have been dropping for the majority of Americans since the 1960s - although the 1% has become mega-rich

The US in 1960 was on a complete different planet to Europe. It was so far advanced that it was unbelievable, but they have stood still since then really when the rest of the world has caught up

amideislas

I forgot you live in a world where everything is easy, cheap, fair, and nobody ever struggles.

In the real world, starting a business is substantially more difficult in Spain and Europe in general. Labour (when hired above the table and to the letter of the law) is expensive and risky. Taxes are amongst the world's highest, operating costs, energy, bureaucracy, and regulatory demands are high, unless of course, your business employs thousands, which can enjoy far less bureaucratic and tax burdens, since average employees pay the bulk of taxes - and European bureaucrats know very well where the good money is.

Even with a great innovation or idea, a startup costs a fortune to establish and keep alive for a year or two. Precious few survive. But fortunately in Spain there's a black market alternative that can ease the burdens while your business is incubated.

In Europe, it's the big money that has the more favourable chance of prospering, which explains a lot about why big business always seems to thrive even in a very weak economy.

Compared to the US, where small businesses account for the vast majority of employers. Small business in the US

And yes, people do get rich in the US. From nothing. And it's not even necessary to suck up to bureaucrats and politician friends to "pave the way". It's allowed to prosper without paying anyone off! Imagine that!

cricketman

You are deliriously wrong

Spain has one of the highest rates of small business ownerships in the world

Actually they have too many small businesses, they could do with a few more big employers!

jackytoo

Agree, which in turn makes for a much cheaper cost of living in the USA.

We have been cruising most years and book through an American TA. They offer identical cruises for considerably less than European companies. Reason Europe cannot compete because the cruise lines have a different pricing system in Europe. I have just been checking out a cruise, advertised at £1150 pp in the UK. I can get it for £740pp. Through the American TA. Quite a difference eh. The cruise lines have put on pressure to stop selling to Europeans but we can get around it by having an address there. I just change the details online after the cruise line has accepted the booking.

amideislas

Hey, I published your disclaimer; living in an alternate reality. Nothing delirious about that.

But you're correct, around 60% of Spanish businesses are considered "SME", as compared to over 80% of US businesses.

But to suggest that establishing and running a business in Spain (or Europe for that matter) is somehow easier and less expensive than in the US, well, I already gave you the disclaimer...