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Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
Originally Posted by JLFS
(Post 9658371)
could it be that the only truly "intergrated" are the ones who dont give it a second thought, never talk about it,never hear it mentioned and dont know what the word means?
It should be like breathing, no analysis needed, just natural. It astonishes me that expats are so obsessed with the topic. Live and let live. I do what I want, they do what they want. Neither cares about the other. I most certainly am not going to waste my life ingratiating myself to the locals. I owe them nothing. By definition, I have a legal right to live anywhere within EU borders. I shall continue to pick and choose as I see fit, without needing the permission of the indiginous population. Besides, it's even obvious to a blind man that "integration" doesn't exist. It's just a stick to beat people with (as someone else said). Don't worry, be happy! |
Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
Originally Posted by HBG
(Post 9658168)
If we look at the question of integration from a European perspective (before it blows up), it might be easier to understand. We are all Europeans and as such are allowed to move freely between fellow European states, to live, work and feel at home in.
A million Brits have moved to Spain as a consequence. We couldn't have done so before 1975 because Franco wouldn't let us, at least not without money and other criteria. But once the floodgates opened, the masses rolled in, and why? Most people are offended when some harsh commentator says it was just for the sun and cheapness, but it is a factor, luckily not the only one. The friendliness of Spanish people towards foreigners is beyond doubt, at least when compared to neighbouring France. How do you define what happens after the Brits arrive in great numbers? Define integration? A small number of immigrants take the bull by the horns and move into a totally Spanish environment, they may even burn their birth certificates and call themselves Paco and Maria to blend in. Another small number live in foreign ghettos and expect to see Spaniards riding down the streets on donkeys, while they sit outside the Red Lion drinking pints of John Smiths. They sing 'the green, green grass of home' and they've only been here a week. The vast majority are sensible people who make some effort to integrate at an appropriate level. They learn some of the difficult language and make some Spanish friends. They appreciate a culture which is there to be enjoyed, it's as old and similar to the one they came from. I still have my birth certificate. Xavi. Spanish people tend to be friendly towards foreigners, at least in general. Of course there are exceptions, just as everywhere: even between Spanish people you can clearly see a raise in xenophobia. But we tend to be more welcoming to foreigners (at least foreigners from outside Spain) than many other countries such as France and the UK, to name only two. It's only recently that one can see more concern about illegal inmigration, etc, but I honestly think that for many people it's more an economic issue than actual racism. Do not forget that not too long ago we were a poor country that had to "export" people, we do understand how desperate people can get. I have distant family in many parts of the world because of this, just as many Spanish people. But equally let's not forget that we did fight to change things here too so people would have more choices that simply leave. Nothing is solved if people simply leave their countries, this only extends the problem when we talk great numbers. When it comes to people from let's call it "Occidental background" and who clearly are not going to strain our economy, we normally welcome them with open arms. This is not the case in many countries who directly distrust and actually dislike foreigners, from the EU or not. Please let's not be hypocritical: all countries set up their preferences about admitting foreigners, trying to make sure that they will have means to support themselves, being retired or ready to work because they are needed. I'm not talking about being particularly rich or anything like that, just that very obviously and in my opinion with good sense, all countries in these times try to be a bit selective about who they grant access. Specially as the number of illegals grow out of control. Of course they cannot do this with EU citizens, but you only need to see the custom controls for non EU citizens, be it in the UK or Spain, or check the custom situation in Australia or USA for all foreigners... But then, talking about EU members and in this particular case British ex pats living in Spain, I agree that many clearly do have an interest to get to know the country and it's people. I just feel sad for many others who so evidently don't. The fact that I often hear comments about foreigners in the UK also makes me react to this hypocritical double standard and evident disinterest in the "host" country which this time happens to be mine. I understand that it is a personal option, and obviously my opinion is not going to change anything. I can only say again what I firmly believe: if you are to live for many years in another country by choice, you should at least show some interest in that country and it's people rather than simply living there for the sun, without mixing a bit with natives or learning a bit of their language. As I personally believe this is the correct way to facilitate integration, that is what I try to do living in the UK. |
Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
Originally Posted by evamar
(Post 9658407)
if you are to live for many years in another country by choice, you should at least show some interest in that country and it's people rather than simply living there for the sun, without mixing a bit with natives or learning a bit of their language. As I personally believe this is the correct way to facilitate integration, that is what I try to do living in the UK.
We are not Borg. |
Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
Using the dictionary meaning of the word ... Combine with something to form a whole .... I live here with many others of varied nationalities....combining to form the whole population of Spain.
The second defination my dictionary gives me is ... make someone accepted within a social group. ...... I live here alone and no matter where I live I am not a group person. I live my life quietly with communication with the people around me if they/and I want it. The mountain village I have stayed in most of the year is predominately spanish, they welcomed me after first visit like a friend who had been away too long. They invite me to events and of all the ones I have talked with in my poor spanish they make a tremendous effort to communicate with me and I with them. We have had some good laughs and I long to go back. Am I integrated ? I have no idea and don't think about it. I think I am accepted as I dont get hassles from neighbours nor people in street/cafes/bars/shop etc. No matter where you live, you live your life, you either 'mix' or you don't. I think it is more mutally beneficial if you can at least rub along nicely with the community you live in. I don't live here for the sun, I live here because I like living here and it feels like home at least for now. |
Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
Originally Posted by whitelinen
(Post 9658417)
Is facilitate integration another way of saying sublimation?
I was talking to a guy who works at the ayuntamiento in Benalmádena Pueblo the other day, he says it is amazing what they have to put up with every day. People coming to see them who dont speak a word of Spanish or know anything about the documents they need to live in Spain. He says he knows British people who've been here 40 years and still can only say Hola That certainly is not integration. In fact I see it as incredibly rude and arrogant. I feel sorry for the civil servants who have to sort out the mess for these people every day because they dont speak good Spanish and are too tight (or poor) to pay for a gestor or translator. It is incredible the amount of Brits who seem to think you dont "need" to speak Spanish to live in Spain. Well, maybe you dont, but then make sure you have enough money for a gestor, private health insurance, international schools for your children and a translator on call for when you need them! |
Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
Who cares anyway,..... as long as various peoples get along well together and take any contrasting customs and habits well in their stride ?
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Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
Originally Posted by Dick Dasterdly
(Post 9658436)
Who cares anyway,..... as long as various peoples get along well together ?
My tennis league starts next week. 78 Spaniards, 1 Brit and 1 American. My football league starts the week after that. I've yet to meet another Brit there. This is in area where there are 10,000s of British people, they just dont do anything Spanish people do. They surround themselves with other British people. |
Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
Originally Posted by avocados
(Post 9658390)
The only sensible post so far!!
It astonishes me that expats are so obsessed with the topic. Live and let live. I do what I want, they do what they want. Neither cares about the other. I most certainly am not going to waste my life ingratiating myself to the locals. I owe them nothing. By definition, I have a legal right to live anywhere within EU borders. I shall continue to pick and choose as I see fit, without needing the permission of the indiginous population. Besides, it's even obvious to a blind man that "integration" doesn't exist. It's just a stick to beat people with (as someone else said). Don't worry, be happy! As it means being comfortable in where you are and what you do. |
Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
I agree with the points Evamar and Cricketman make.
I will never be, and it would be stupid to pretend I could, anything but English no matter what country I chose to live in. However, I chose to live in a country I felt an affinity with, that I felt shared some of the same values as my own (eg democracy, freedom of speech and tolerance) and some that my own used to have but that it seemed to me were being lost (decent standards of behaviour from children and adults alike, respect for the elderly, good public services, etc). I wanted to learn the language of my new home so that I could communicate with my neighbours and make some new friends, deal independently with "officialdom" without feeling helpless or expecting any special arrangements to be made to facilitate matters for me, handle any emergencies that might arise and generally get the most out of life by being aware of what is going on both locally and further afield that I might like to take part in. I don't go to every local event or feria by any means, only the ones that interest me, but I do participate in local events that are relevant to me, eg a series of public meetings organised by the Ayuntamiento as a consultation exercise about a large regeneration project taking place in my area over a 5 year period. If we don't take part in such things, IMO we are not then entitled to moan if we don't like the results. It does annoy me, and make me sad, when British people tell me that they're not interested in such things as "they're nothing to do with us" (mind you, I used to feel exactly the same when canvassing during elections and having people on the doorstep saying they weren't interested in politics!). If I happen to mention in conversation that we've been to a concert or an item of local news from the paper, they say "how did you find out about that" in amazement, although there might be a poster stuck up on the wall opposite and the papers are available for all to read, online if you can't get out to pick them up. The ones who really do make me angry, though, are those who refuse to consider themselves to be immigrants in Spain, using such excuses as "but we have money", "we benefit the Spanish economy", "they'd still be riding about on donkeys and working in the fields if it weren't for us" - and I've actually heard all of those said, more than once. Without exception, they are always the same people who go off on a rant at the slightest excuse about immigrants to the UK and cite them as one of the main reasons they left to live in Spain. |
Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
Originally Posted by The Capitans Wench
(Post 9658419)
Using the dictionary meaning of the word ... Combine with something to form a whole .... I live here with many others of varied nationalities....combining to form the whole population of Spain.
The second defination my dictionary gives me is ... make someone accepted within a social group. ...... I live here alone and no matter where I live I am not a group person. I live my life quietly with communication with the people around me if they/and I want it. The mountain village I have stayed in most of the year is predominately spanish, they welcomed me after first visit like a friend who had been away too long. They invite me to events and of all the ones I have talked with in my poor spanish they make a tremendous effort to communicate with me and I with them. We have had some good laughs and I long to go back. Am I integrated ? I have no idea and don't think about it. I think I am accepted as I dont get hassles from neighbours nor people in street/cafes/bars/shop etc. No matter where you live, you live your life, you either 'mix' or you don't. I think it is more mutally beneficial if you can at least rub along nicely with the community you live in. I don't live here for the sun, I live here because I like living here and it feels like home at least for now. good post, acceptance (on both sides) is the best that can be asked, integration takes centuries. perhaps European will become a nationality but it will take a L O N G time, far more than we have. rgds |
Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
Originally Posted by johnnyone
(Post 9658285)
Just because you may think you have integrated does not mean that you have.
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Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
Originally Posted by agoreira
(Post 9658559)
Correct, there are those that I refer to as "plastic Spanish" that seem to think by renouncing all things British (I only eat Spanish food, I only have Spanish friends, I never go back to UK, I only watch Spanish TV etc) they are instantly "integrated" and loved by the locals. To deliberately try to airbrush out your past seems a tad sad to me.
When we lived in Britain we (mainly) ate British food and watched British TV. Now we are in Spain, we eat (mainly) Spanish food and watch Spanish TV. It's only naturally, we're not renouncing anything |
Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
Originally Posted by JLFS
(Post 9658371)
could it be that the only truly "intergrated" are the ones who dont give it a second thought, never talk about it,never hear it mentioned and dont know what the word means?
It should be like breathing, no analysis needed, just natural. K coming your way! |
Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
Having asked this very question of my Spanish teacher in a 'forum' kind of debate in class last week, I was interested when the subject of integration started to rear its head in the other thread.
I think Capitan's Wench said what my feelings are, namely if you're a mixer you'll mix wherever you are and if you're solitary you'll do your own thing ditto. It's my perception that when there are mutterings and putterings about people not integrating in the UK it's usually that they're in 'ghettos' (yes, we could say that applies in some places here) but for me, critically, that they do not make much if any attempt to speak English. I would personally no more expect someone to be interested in British history than want to be 'made' to be interested in Spanish history/culture. I'm far keener on the wildlife! Without that cross-pollination of language you fall at the hurdle my teacher flagged up which was that Spanish people might, understandably have a totally skewed inaccurate view of 'us Brits' (or any other nationality) if we are not capable of expressing ourselves and giving away just a bit about what we think and feel. She has found herself telling people in the village what we are like: the people in her class - because there are assumptions made. Once dispelled by Ana, one of the hurdles is just a bit lower. Her definition seemed to hinge much more on mutual understanding brought about by gentle and progressive conversation than anything else. Oh...and make no mistake, expressing feelings and beliefs is a step up the language ladder that is important but so very very difficult:( I can't remember who, but a couple of posters have said words to the effect of 'why worry what anyone thinks'... well it may not matter what others think, but it can't hurt to contemplate and debate can it? Which kind of covers off the JLFS/Megmet post too!! ps not everyone on BE is elderly:rolleyes: |
Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
Originally Posted by cricketman
(Post 9658441)
The thing is they dont DD.
My tennis league starts next week. 78 Spaniards, 1 Brit and 1 American. My football league starts the week after that. I've yet to meet another Brit there. This is in area where there are 10,000s of British people, they just dont do anything Spanish people do. They surround themselves with other British people. Just to balance your comments on sports, Malaga football club has huge Brit support. And these are the Spanish National bowls squads. LADIES Ann Eagle Sheila Cammack Maggie Lawley Chris Evans Maggie Holmes Jo Morris Sheri Fletcher Yvonne Briden Lynn Greenland MEN Bill Pain Paul Brown Brian Robertson Jnr Brian Robertson Snr Nick Cole Mick Johnson Steve Pearson Ian Kenyon Joe Stamper Derek Eldon |
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