fionamw

Please let's try and make this constructive

I'm sure that we all have slightly different definitions of what we consider constitutes integration. We might even have slightly different definitions of what we think constitutes 'preferable, required' integration into the UK as distinct from what we feel we choose to, or ought to, do to integrate into Spain. As distinct again from what we believe, or know, our Spanish neighbours to think of the subject of integration.

To attempt to do this in as intelligent a fashion as possible, I thought I'd introduce a statistic or two. Way too difficult! Your starters for 10, having googled for five minutes: in no order of priority, there's 'involvement in institutions', spiritual growth, work, skills, civic education, language, 'inclusion'...........

JLFS

Following on from a great post byHGB on another thread, which more or less said that my feelings on the matter.

Integration, impossible to measure.

If being integrated is joining in with the local activities, fiestas, church activities, local politics, then by that definition there will be thousands of people not integrated in the OWN country,here UK and everywhere.

Or is integration just a big stick to beat the less fluent/active/visible incomers.

Ask yourselves this question, if you went to live in a strict Islamic country would you be so keen to integrate and follow their example through choice.?

fionamw

My thoughts almost to the letter.
Ref impossible to measure, there are loads of bureaucrats up and down the EU and elsewhere making a healthy income pinpointing shades of definition. Just may not reflect the real world.

tex_ritter

I would if I was a muslim; if you were not then why would you go? Perhaps for work the same as many muslim's who come to the UK. Many are not here to integrate, just make money same as the UK engineers and nurses et al who work in UAE, Oman etc.

fionamw

And what is to integrate???? Is it to be able to order a beer and know if you've been short-changed or is it to discuss whether or not the brewery has changed its recipes six times in the past 4 years? Is it to respect your neighbours despite not knowing their education/religion/political persuasion because you would respect your neighbour wherever you were?

evamar

For me, and as I said in another thread this is simply my own opinion and in any case an attack, there should be some interest in the country or its people if you WANT to live in a different country as yours.

I'm not talking about refugees or illegals, who often only want to escape their own country and do not really care where to go as long as they can be protected or simply hide as illegals, or work commitments or short stays. I'm simply talking of all the people who actually WANT to leave their country to live in another one of their choice, many of them for many decades and even for the rest of their lives.

I'm simply talking about at least having an interest about what is particular of that country, not something as the weather or if there are more people from your own country so that you won't even have to mix with the natives and learn the language.

Following JLFS's post, I understand that it simply leaves particular activities to the particular taste of each person. I agree to that, but cannot see it as a measurement of integration, basically because people is mostly apathic, but not at all uninformed with regards to local and particular issues, which is precisely my criticism for non integrated people. I'm not talking about money here, not even personal tastes as they cannot be used to measure integration.

A strict islamic country? No, I wouldn't WANT to live there, which makes it not applicable to my point. Besides, if by work reasons or similar I actually end up there as a woman I wouldn't have any other way that to dress up and stay at home or learn the language and risk going out an being constantly observed and corrected by force... again not really comparable to the situation of ex pats in Spain who actually WANT to live there and are not actually forced to do anything other than what they WANT to do in a free country.

Church activities? Personally I'm not religious as I worry more about the life here, I'll see if there is something else when my turn comes. This actually makes me share the actual non religious current in Spain, the UK and many other places, so again not really something distinctive. Yes, Spain is mainly Catholic, but it is also mainly secular for most people under 40. But at least one should know about the basis of the other main religions and the differences with one's own, if only to avoid ackward situations. For instance, if I were an ex pat in Spain and actually had Spanish friends, I wouldn't offer them meat on Fridays unless I'm certain they are not practicing Catholics. If one doesn't WANT to interact with natives of course one doesn't even have to know the reason of this.

Local activities? Maybe there are more in small villages than in cities and many are not advertised. Now and then I get to know of some charity walk, farmers' market, art exhibition, etc, and I go simply depending on whether or not I'm interested in the particular activity: I don't discard them per se, just as I don't join them per se. I see this more connected to one's particular taste and interests, and not really connected with something that actually can measure integration.

Fiestas? I do try to know about them and participate at least once. It stays as only once if I don't like them, and if I like them I will possibly participate next time. In my small village in the UK they celebrate spring with some parade, market and carnival. Have I gone to them all? yes. Have I gone again? Only to the market, because I already knew what to expect from the other activities. Again, a mere matter of taste, but I think one should at least put some efford and learn a bit about local traditions. For instance, there is an old oak in my village there and you are supposed to be silent when you pass it, many people even do this when they drive under it as it extends to cover the road. Why do I know this? I was interested to know... but I do talk under it.

Politics? I honestly tought that in guetto areas people will be actually quite interested in getting an ex pat as alcalde or at least get representation in local ayuntamientos. My first thought is that they will be quite interested in local elections and politics. I'm not criticising them, don't take me wrong, it makes total sense when you are in an area with lots of ex pats who want to protect their interests instead of voting to local native politician who most of them cannot even understand. In the UK I do vote at local elections, simply because I think that everybody should vote rather than simply complain about politics. But of course, I don't have other Spanish people as friends there as I don't live in a Spanish guetto, so I don't expect to get a local Spanish representative, I just vote according to the candidate's public ideas.


I think that even not participating in many "particular" issues, you can still show more interest in the country than merely the wheather, and I try to act according to that. I don't think that personal taste or income can be taken as a measurement of integration: but I firmly believe that interest about the country and it's people can.

Domino

I wouldnt go in the first place so the question is null and void.

EllisG

nor me...unless Mossad sent me on a mission until then I shall continue my integration with the beach and the weather

megmet

An excellent post and I've quoted some of the things in it that I particulaly agree with.

In my own opinion one should have a high regard for the country, it's people and traditions and adjust as much as possible to the accepted ways of that country. We should not expect everything to be done as it was in the homeland... as sadly so many Brits still seem to do!

Above all else one should in no way look down on the indigenous people, no matter what their social standing or education may be, it is their country and we are just guests in it!
We have no right to demand changes to traditions, even if we find them distasteful, we wouldn't tolerate interference into our traditions in the UK.

Personally I love to hear the tales the old timers have to tell, their lives here were hard in a way we have never known, but through it all they for the most part have kept their generosity of spirit.
They have welcomed us here into their country and made us feel at home, I would like to think we would do the same in the UK, but I doubt it.

So love the country, make friends with the local people and simply just fit in with their ways, that's IMO is the way to integrate!

Domino

Fiona, it must be a quiet night at home tonite.........

Integration only works when all parties want it to work, so its no use a load of elderly British expats saying whatever if the Spanish\Egyptians\Malays\Chinese or whoever don't want to integrate with said elderly Brit expats.

Integration is something that cannot happen "click" just like that, Integration takes time, it takes understanding, it takes a settling in. Although the Romans managed to integrate over a couple of hundred years, as did the Vikings, it didnt happen over night.

The Uk makes a bit thing about what is essentially a Christian society integrating with Muslims, when living in a city with a high population of them I know that despite all the protestations they really don't want to integrate with us, as shown by their actions not their words...
Which is why the fluffy bunnies who came up with the Integration blueprint have now changed a IMHO hated word to Diversity, which becomes more confusing as it actually expands the problem not solve it.

So an individual going out to a few feria's, drinking in bars frequented by locals, learns the language etc doesnt make them integrated until the people on the other side of the street say so.

The biggest test is not only can an individual's son have sex with your daughter but your son can marry his daughter. Without fear of retribution.
If that cannot happen in Northern Ireland and Glasgow due to a religious divide how will it happen with Brits and the Spanish.

Or am I being too harsh.?

What we need is a great big melting pot
Big enough enough enough to take the world and all its got
And keep it stirring for a hundred years or more
And turn out coffee coloured people by the score

http://www.google.co.uk/url?q=http:/...s4ej9EkOXK1RwA

rgds.

HBG

If we look at the question of integration from a European perspective (before it blows up), it might be easier to understand. We are all Europeans and as such are allowed to move freely between fellow European states, to live, work and feel at home in.

A million Brits have moved to Spain as a consequence. We couldn't have done so before 1975 because Franco wouldn't let us, at least not without money and other criteria.

But once the floodgates opened, the masses rolled in, and why? Most people are offended when some harsh commentator says it was just for the sun and cheapness, but it is a factor, luckily not the only one. The friendliness of Spanish people towards foreigners is beyond doubt, at least when compared to neighbouring France.

How do you define what happens after the Brits arrive in great numbers? Define integration? A small number of immigrants take the bull by the horns and move into a totally Spanish environment, they may even burn their birth certificates and call themselves Paco and Maria to blend in.

Another small number live in foreign ghettos and expect to see Spaniards riding down the streets on donkeys, while they sit outside the Red Lion drinking pints of John Smiths. They sing 'the green, green grass of home' and they've only been here a week.

The vast majority are sensible people who make some effort to integrate at an appropriate level. They learn some of the difficult language and make some Spanish friends. They appreciate a culture which is there to be enjoyed, it's as old and similar to the one they came from.

I still have my birth certificate.

Xavi.

johnnyone

I agree with that.
Just because you may think you have integrated does not mean that you have.

cricketman

I've never had a problem with this

When I left Uni I came to Malaga to do some work experience in a Spanish life insurance company, I was with my current (Spanish) OH and had been for a couple of years.

Every day we'd go for 11s and chat for a good half an hour so we got to know each other pretty well. After a couple of weeks, Manolo, one of the sales guys, said half joking "It's a shame you have a girlfriend, I'd love to find a nice guy like you for one of my daughters"

Thats probably a good example of integration I guess

Probably the best compliment I've ever had

JLFS

Did you ask for a test drive?

JLFS

could it be that the only truly "intergrated" are the ones who dont give it a second thought, never talk about it,never hear it mentioned and dont know what the word means?

It should be like breathing, no analysis needed, just natural.