Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
Oct 5th 2011 | 3:23 am
#31
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 12,053
From: In the middle of 10million Olive Trees
Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
gee you deserve a CDM for noble purpose
Oct 5th 2011 | 3:25 am
#32
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 12,053
From: In the middle of 10million Olive Trees
Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
The thing is they dont DD.
My tennis league starts next week. 78 Spaniards, 1 Brit and 1 American.
My football league starts the week after that. I've yet to meet another Brit there.
This is in area where there are 10,000s of British people, they just dont do anything Spanish people do. They surround themselves with other British people.
My tennis league starts next week. 78 Spaniards, 1 Brit and 1 American.
My football league starts the week after that. I've yet to meet another Brit there.
This is in area where there are 10,000s of British people, they just dont do anything Spanish people do. They surround themselves with other British people.
Oct 5th 2011 | 3:25 am
#33
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 7,749
Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
I don't like the sound of where you live much, it's certainly not like that around here.Just to balance your comments on sports, Malaga football club has huge Brit support. And these are the Spanish National bowls squads.
LADIES
Ann Eagle
Sheila Cammack
Maggie Lawley
Chris Evans
Maggie Holmes
Jo Morris
Sheri Fletcher
Yvonne Briden
Lynn Greenland
MEN
Bill Pain
Paul Brown
Brian Robertson Jnr
Brian Robertson Snr
Nick Cole
Mick Johnson
Steve Pearson
Ian Kenyon
Joe Stamper
Derek Eldon
Malaga has a section of fans called the "guiri army" whoch suggests they they hang out together, instead of with Spaniards. Again, not integrated.
Btw, this doesnt bother me, I didnt come to Spain to talk to brits. I get my Brit-fix on this forum
Oct 5th 2011 | 3:30 am
#35
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 12,053
From: In the middle of 10million Olive Trees
Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
Having asked this very question of my Spanish teacher in a 'forum' kind of debate in class last week, I was interested when the subject of integration started to rear its head in the other thread.
I think Capitan's Wench said what my feelings are, namely if you're a mixer you'll mix wherever you are and if you're solitary you'll do your own thing ditto. It's my perception that when there are mutterings and putterings about people not integrating in the UK it's usually that they're in 'ghettos' (yes, we could say that applies in some places here) but for me, critically, that they do not make much if any attempt to speak English. I would personally no more expect someone to be interested in British history than want to be 'made' to be interested in Spanish history/culture. I'm far keener on the wildlife! Without that cross-pollination of language you fall at the hurdle my teacher flagged up which was that Spanish people might, understandably have a totally skewed inaccurate view of 'us Brits' (or any other nationality) if we are not capable of expressing ourselves and giving away just a bit about what we think and feel. She has found herself telling people in the village what we are like: the people in her class - because there are assumptions made. Once dispelled by Ana, one of the hurdles is just a bit lower.
Her definition seemed to hinge much more on mutual understanding brought about by gentle and progressive conversation than anything else.
Oh...and make no mistake, expressing feelings and beliefs is a step up the language ladder that is important but so very very difficult
I can't remember who, but a couple of posters have said words to the effect of 'why worry what anyone thinks'... well it may not matter what others think, but it can't hurt to contemplate and debate can it? Which kind of covers off the JLFS/Megmet post too!!
ps not everyone on BE is elderly
I think Capitan's Wench said what my feelings are, namely if you're a mixer you'll mix wherever you are and if you're solitary you'll do your own thing ditto. It's my perception that when there are mutterings and putterings about people not integrating in the UK it's usually that they're in 'ghettos' (yes, we could say that applies in some places here) but for me, critically, that they do not make much if any attempt to speak English. I would personally no more expect someone to be interested in British history than want to be 'made' to be interested in Spanish history/culture. I'm far keener on the wildlife! Without that cross-pollination of language you fall at the hurdle my teacher flagged up which was that Spanish people might, understandably have a totally skewed inaccurate view of 'us Brits' (or any other nationality) if we are not capable of expressing ourselves and giving away just a bit about what we think and feel. She has found herself telling people in the village what we are like: the people in her class - because there are assumptions made. Once dispelled by Ana, one of the hurdles is just a bit lower.
Her definition seemed to hinge much more on mutual understanding brought about by gentle and progressive conversation than anything else.
Oh...and make no mistake, expressing feelings and beliefs is a step up the language ladder that is important but so very very difficult
I can't remember who, but a couple of posters have said words to the effect of 'why worry what anyone thinks'... well it may not matter what others think, but it can't hurt to contemplate and debate can it? Which kind of covers off the JLFS/Megmet post too!!
ps not everyone on BE is elderly
thats the subject for another thread - Are you elderly or just act that way on Forums ?
then there's another potential thread - what enhancements would you like to see to the BE Forum.?
Oct 5th 2011 | 3:35 am
#37
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 12,053
From: In the middle of 10million Olive Trees
Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
or is it just that the Brit teams have enough fixtures to not want to play anyone else not part of their circle ?
we have a cricket team made up 100% of Pakistani's, all Muslims, no Indian's, Nepalese, Lithuanians, just Pakistani's.
If it wasnt for the fact I am leaving the UK I might ask them if I could join the team, the same as I was considering joining the Womens Enterprise Centre, which has no male members.........
Oct 5th 2011 | 3:38 am
#38
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,646
From: Near Alora....but not too near. :)
....explain please.
Oct 5th 2011 | 3:39 am
#39
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 12,053
From: In the middle of 10million Olive Trees
Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
Oct 5th 2011 | 3:41 am
#40
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 7,749
Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
so who isnt inviting who ?
or is it just that the Brit teams have enough fixtures to not want to play anyone else not part of their circle ?
we have a cricket team made up 100% of Pakistani's, all Muslims, no Indian's, Nepalese, Lithuanians, just Pakistani's.
If it wasnt for the fact I am leaving the UK I might ask them if I could join the team, the same as I was considering joining the Womens Enterprise Centre, which has no male members.........
or is it just that the Brit teams have enough fixtures to not want to play anyone else not part of their circle ?
we have a cricket team made up 100% of Pakistani's, all Muslims, no Indian's, Nepalese, Lithuanians, just Pakistani's.
If it wasnt for the fact I am leaving the UK I might ask them if I could join the team, the same as I was considering joining the Womens Enterprise Centre, which has no male members.........
I played for a British team for a while in an unofficial summer league. We had a few Argentinean players and one Spanish player who were the best players in the team. The British players ignored all the Spanish speakers and agreed between themselves not to pass to them, even making them subs until eventually the Spanish speakers didnt turn up and the team was wholely British.
Small time xenophobic petty thinking. The reason why I stopped playing for them and now only play in the Spanish leagues where the players are friendly and welcoming.
Oct 5th 2011 | 4:02 am
#41
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 12,053
From: In the middle of 10million Olive Trees
Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
Well the Brits dont know how to join the Spanish leagues because they dont speak Spanish, read the local media or have local contacts. i.e. they are not integrated.
I played for a British team for a while in an unofficial summer league. We had a few Argentinean players and one Spanish player who were the best players in the team. The British players ignored all the Spanish speakers and agreed between themselves not to pass to them, even making them subs until eventually the Spanish speakers didnt turn up and the team was wholely British.
Small time xenophobic petty thinking. The reason why I stopped playing for them and now only play in the Spanish leagues where the players are friendly and welcoming.
I played for a British team for a while in an unofficial summer league. We had a few Argentinean players and one Spanish player who were the best players in the team. The British players ignored all the Spanish speakers and agreed between themselves not to pass to them, even making them subs until eventually the Spanish speakers didnt turn up and the team was wholely British.
Small time xenophobic petty thinking. The reason why I stopped playing for them and now only play in the Spanish leagues where the players are friendly and welcoming.
sounds like there are problems and if acceptance isnt there then integration will never come. As it is their land, not ours, they have the upper hand. Exactly what is happening in the UK, ghettos forming because no one on either side wants to cross to the other side of the road for fear of being rebuffed.
Oct 5th 2011 | 4:12 am
#42
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 7,749
Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
I said this earlier, you cannot become integrated "click" just like that, it has to be worked on by 2 or more parties and can take centuries. Individuals (and families) can become "accepted" but that only relates to those individuals, it will never include those who are not part of the acceptance, no matter how close they may be.
sounds like there are problems and if acceptance isnt there then integration will never come. As it is their land, not ours, they have the upper hand. Exactly what is happening in the UK, ghettos forming because no one on either side wants to cross to the other side of the road for fear of being rebuffed.
sounds like there are problems and if acceptance isnt there then integration will never come. As it is their land, not ours, they have the upper hand. Exactly what is happening in the UK, ghettos forming because no one on either side wants to cross to the other side of the road for fear of being rebuffed.
From my experience and I'm sorry if this might offend, but the British people I've seen come to this part of Spain did so for the sun and cheap cigs and alcohol. Their children were dragged along for the ride and now have no future or identity, being neither Spanish or British and having no skills or ability to get along in either country. The parents were and are incredibly selfish, because they obviously didnt care or were unable to help their children actually get an education. And I'm not sure what a Spanish school is meant to do with a 13 year old that speaks no Spanish?
But then again, most these families come from council estates and poor areas in the UK, so they probably wouldnt have got an education there either.
The young men in these football teams make a living by working in British bars, selling drugs and timeshares and scamming UK OAPs out of their savings in telephone sweathouses.
So let that be a warning, if you are coming with your children to Spain, please make it your priority to help them integrate into the Spanish culture and education system or this will be their future!
Oct 5th 2011 | 4:33 am
#43
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 5,753
From: Alicante province
Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
The irony is that half the players in this football team actually grew up in Spain - and still they either dont or wont speak Spanish even though some went to the local schools for a couple of years (until they dropped out or simply stopped going).
From my experience and I'm sorry if this might offend, but the British people I've seen come to this part of Spain did so for the sun and cheap cigs and alcohol. Their children were dragged along for the ride and now have no future or identity, being neither Spanish or British and having no skills or ability to get along in either country. The parents were and are incredibly selfish, because they obviously didnt care or were unable to help their children actually get an education. And I'm not sure what a Spanish school is meant to do with a 13 year old that speaks no Spanish?
But then again, most these families come from council estates and poor areas in the UK, so they probably wouldnt have got an education there either.
The young men in these football teams make a living by working in British bars, selling drugs and timeshares and scamming UK OAPs out of their savings in telephone sweathouses.
So let that be a warning, if you are coming with your children to Spain, please make it your priority to help them integrate into the Spanish culture and education system or this will be their future!
From my experience and I'm sorry if this might offend, but the British people I've seen come to this part of Spain did so for the sun and cheap cigs and alcohol. Their children were dragged along for the ride and now have no future or identity, being neither Spanish or British and having no skills or ability to get along in either country. The parents were and are incredibly selfish, because they obviously didnt care or were unable to help their children actually get an education. And I'm not sure what a Spanish school is meant to do with a 13 year old that speaks no Spanish?
But then again, most these families come from council estates and poor areas in the UK, so they probably wouldnt have got an education there either.
The young men in these football teams make a living by working in British bars, selling drugs and timeshares and scamming UK OAPs out of their savings in telephone sweathouses.
So let that be a warning, if you are coming with your children to Spain, please make it your priority to help them integrate into the Spanish culture and education system or this will be their future!
The average Brit comes to Spain with around £150,000 to buy a house and has an income of around £20,000 PA to live in Spain, how the hell can you get that if you live on a council estate or poor area in the UK?
I'm still thinking of relocating back to the CDS, but from what you say I'll give Benalmadena Pueblo a wide berth. Is Fuengirola a posher place? It surely can't be any worse.
Oct 5th 2011 | 4:47 am
#44
Thread Starter
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,174
From: near Colmenar, Prov de Malaga
Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
I'm a country girl too... and a campesina - cue JLFS!!!!) or maybe 'community' - well absolutely a minority of people are interested in being part of PTAs, governing bodies, Parish Councils et al in the UK (me being one of those that was involved in all) but OH and I were fairly keen that I didn't fall into the same trap of living my life through committees so even before we moved to Spain, I'd weaned myself. So what culture is it my child should be integrated into? I agree 100% on language. No contest, no argument. But then he's been correcting my Spanish since he was about 6!(No excuses for anyone whatever age not knowing more than hola after a month, never mind several decades)
Oct 5th 2011 | 4:53 am
#45
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 7,749
Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
Its not such a bad place to live, just dont hang out with the British kids. Especially if they like football
My Spanish team mates are professionals from Malaga which is probably while they are more polite, sociable and welcoming.
HBG, I believe a lot of them bought their council house or had bought a cheap house for not very much and then sold it when house prices increased, and came to Spain with their money. I think thats a pretty normal scenario for Brits living around here
Fiona, for "culture" I meant "society" or "life". i.e. if your kids only watch English TV, listen to English radio and read English papers and books in the CDS then they are seriously harming their future. Unless they go to an international school and go back to Britain at 18 of course.
