Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
 

Please let's try and make this constructive:fingerscrossed:

I'm sure that we all have slightly different definitions of what we consider constitutes integration. We might even have slightly different definitions of what we think constitutes 'preferable, required' integration into the UK as distinct from what we feel we choose to, or ought to, do to integrate into Spain. As distinct again from what we believe, or know, our Spanish neighbours to think of the subject of integration.

To attempt to do this in as intelligent a fashion as possible, I thought I'd introduce a statistic or two. Way too difficult! Your starters for 10, having googled for five minutes: in no order of priority, there's 'involvement in institutions', spiritual growth, work, skills, civic education, language, 'inclusion'...........

Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
 

Following on from a great post byHGB on another thread, which more or less said that my feelings on the matter.

Integration, impossible to measure.

If being integrated is joining in with the local activities, fiestas, church activities, local politics, then by that definition there will be thousands of people not integrated in the OWN country,here UK and everywhere.

Or is integration just a big stick to beat the less fluent/active/visible incomers.

Ask yourselves this question, if you went to live in a strict Islamic country would you be so keen to integrate and follow their example through choice.?

Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
 

My thoughts almost to the letter.
Ref impossible to measure, there are loads of bureaucrats up and down the EU and elsewhere making a healthy income pinpointing shades of definition. Just may not reflect the real world.

Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
 

I would if I was a muslim; if you were not then why would you go? Perhaps for work the same as many muslim's who come to the UK. Many are not here to integrate, just make money same as the UK engineers and nurses et al who work in UAE, Oman etc.

Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
 

And what is to integrate???? Is it to be able to order a beer and know if you've been short-changed or is it to discuss whether or not the brewery has changed its recipes six times in the past 4 years? Is it to respect your neighbours despite not knowing their education/religion/political persuasion because you would respect your neighbour wherever you were?

Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
 

For me, and as I said in another thread this is simply my own opinion and in any case an attack, there should be some interest in the country or its people if you WANT to live in a different country as yours.

I'm not talking about refugees or illegals, who often only want to escape their own country and do not really care where to go as long as they can be protected or simply hide as illegals, or work commitments or short stays. I'm simply talking of all the people who actually WANT to leave their country to live in another one of their choice, many of them for many decades and even for the rest of their lives.

I'm simply talking about at least having an interest about what is particular of that country, not something as the weather or if there are more people from your own country so that you won't even have to mix with the natives and learn the language.

Following JLFS's post, I understand that it simply leaves particular activities to the particular taste of each person. I agree to that, but cannot see it as a measurement of integration, basically because people is mostly apathic, but not at all uninformed with regards to local and particular issues, which is precisely my criticism for non integrated people. I'm not talking about money here, not even personal tastes as they cannot be used to measure integration.

A strict islamic country? No, I wouldn't WANT to live there, which makes it not applicable to my point. Besides, if by work reasons or similar I actually end up there as a woman I wouldn't have any other way that to dress up and stay at home or learn the language and risk going out an being constantly observed and corrected by force... again not really comparable to the situation of ex pats in Spain who actually WANT to live there and are not actually forced to do anything other than what they WANT to do in a free country.

Church activities? Personally I'm not religious as I worry more about the life here, I'll see if there is something else when my turn comes. This actually makes me share the actual non religious current in Spain, the UK and many other places, so again not really something distinctive. Yes, Spain is mainly Catholic, but it is also mainly secular for most people under 40. But at least one should know about the basis of the other main religions and the differences with one's own, if only to avoid ackward situations. For instance, if I were an ex pat in Spain and actually had Spanish friends, I wouldn't offer them meat on Fridays unless I'm certain they are not practicing Catholics. If one doesn't WANT to interact with natives of course one doesn't even have to know the reason of this.

Local activities? Maybe there are more in small villages than in cities and many are not advertised. Now and then I get to know of some charity walk, farmers' market, art exhibition, etc, and I go simply depending on whether or not I'm interested in the particular activity: I don't discard them per se, just as I don't join them per se. I see this more connected to one's particular taste and interests, and not really connected with something that actually can measure integration.

Fiestas? I do try to know about them and participate at least once. It stays as only once if I don't like them, and if I like them I will possibly participate next time. In my small village in the UK they celebrate spring with some parade, market and carnival. Have I gone to them all? yes. Have I gone again? Only to the market, because I already knew what to expect from the other activities. Again, a mere matter of taste, but I think one should at least put some efford and learn a bit about local traditions. For instance, there is an old oak in my village there and you are supposed to be silent when you pass it, many people even do this when they drive under it as it extends to cover the road. Why do I know this? I was interested to know... but I do talk under it.

Politics? I honestly tought that in guetto areas people will be actually quite interested in getting an ex pat as alcalde or at least get representation in local ayuntamientos. My first thought is that they will be quite interested in local elections and politics. I'm not criticising them, don't take me wrong, it makes total sense when you are in an area with lots of ex pats who want to protect their interests instead of voting to local native politician who most of them cannot even understand. In the UK I do vote at local elections, simply because I think that everybody should vote rather than simply complain about politics. But of course, I don't have other Spanish people as friends there as I don't live in a Spanish guetto, so I don't expect to get a local Spanish representative, I just vote according to the candidate's public ideas.


I think that even not participating in many "particular" issues, you can still show more interest in the country than merely the wheather, and I try to act according to that. I don't think that personal taste or income can be taken as a measurement of integration: but I firmly believe that interest about the country and it's people can.

Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
 

I wouldnt go in the first place so the question is null and void.

Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
 

nor me...unless Mossad sent me on a mission :D until then I shall continue my integration with the beach and the weather

Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
 

An excellent post and I've quoted some of the things in it that I particulaly agree with.

In my own opinion one should have a high regard for the country, it's people and traditions and adjust as much as possible to the accepted ways of that country. We should not expect everything to be done as it was in the homeland... as sadly so many Brits still seem to do!

Above all else one should in no way look down on the indigenous people, no matter what their social standing or education may be, it is their country and we are just guests in it!
We have no right to demand changes to traditions, even if we find them distasteful, we wouldn't tolerate interference into our traditions in the UK.

Personally I love to hear the tales the old timers have to tell, their lives here were hard in a way we have never known, but through it all they for the most part have kept their generosity of spirit.
They have welcomed us here into their country and made us feel at home, I would like to think we would do the same in the UK, but I doubt it.

So love the country, make friends with the local people and simply just fit in with their ways, that's IMO is the way to integrate! :)

Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
 

Fiona, it must be a quiet night at home tonite.........

Integration only works when all parties want it to work, so its no use a load of elderly British expats saying whatever if the Spanish\Egyptians\Malays\Chinese or whoever don't want to integrate with said elderly Brit expats.

Integration is something that cannot happen "click" just like that, Integration takes time, it takes understanding, it takes a settling in. Although the Romans managed to integrate over a couple of hundred years, as did the Vikings, it didnt happen over night.

The Uk makes a bit thing about what is essentially a Christian society integrating with Muslims, when living in a city with a high population of them I know that despite all the protestations they really don't want to integrate with us, as shown by their actions not their words...
Which is why the fluffy bunnies who came up with the Integration blueprint have now changed a IMHO hated word to Diversity, which becomes more confusing as it actually expands the problem not solve it.

So an individual going out to a few feria's, drinking in bars frequented by locals, learns the language etc doesnt make them integrated until the people on the other side of the street say so.

The biggest test is not only can an individual's son have sex with your daughter but your son can marry his daughter. Without fear of retribution.
If that cannot happen in Northern Ireland and Glasgow due to a religious divide how will it happen with Brits and the Spanish.

Or am I being too harsh.?

What we need is a great big melting pot
Big enough enough enough to take the world and all its got
And keep it stirring for a hundred years or more
And turn out coffee coloured people by the score

http://www.google.co.uk/url?q=http:/...s4ej9EkOXK1RwA

rgds.

Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
 

If we look at the question of integration from a European perspective (before it blows up), it might be easier to understand. We are all Europeans and as such are allowed to move freely between fellow European states, to live, work and feel at home in.

A million Brits have moved to Spain as a consequence. We couldn't have done so before 1975 because Franco wouldn't let us, at least not without money and other criteria.

But once the floodgates opened, the masses rolled in, and why? Most people are offended when some harsh commentator says it was just for the sun and cheapness, but it is a factor, luckily not the only one. The friendliness of Spanish people towards foreigners is beyond doubt, at least when compared to neighbouring France.

How do you define what happens after the Brits arrive in great numbers? Define integration? A small number of immigrants take the bull by the horns and move into a totally Spanish environment, they may even burn their birth certificates and call themselves Paco and Maria to blend in.

Another small number live in foreign ghettos and expect to see Spaniards riding down the streets on donkeys, while they sit outside the Red Lion drinking pints of John Smiths. They sing 'the green, green grass of home' and they've only been here a week.

The vast majority are sensible people who make some effort to integrate at an appropriate level. They learn some of the difficult language and make some Spanish friends. They appreciate a culture which is there to be enjoyed, it's as old and similar to the one they came from.

I still have my birth certificate.

Xavi.

Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
 

I agree with that.
Just because you may think you have integrated does not mean that you have.

Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
 

I've never had a problem with this :rofl:

When I left Uni I came to Malaga to do some work experience in a Spanish life insurance company, I was with my current (Spanish) OH and had been for a couple of years.

Every day we'd go for 11s and chat for a good half an hour so we got to know each other pretty well. After a couple of weeks, Manolo, one of the sales guys, said half joking "It's a shame you have a girlfriend, I'd love to find a nice guy like you for one of my daughters"

Thats probably a good example of integration I guess ;)

Probably the best compliment I've ever had

Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
 

Did you ask for a test drive? :lol::lol:

Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
 

could it be that the only truly "intergrated" are the ones who dont give it a second thought, never talk about it,never hear it mentioned and dont know what the word means?

It should be like breathing, no analysis needed, just natural.

Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
 

The only sensible post so far!!

It astonishes me that expats are so obsessed with the topic.

Live and let live. I do what I want, they do what they want. Neither cares about the other.

I most certainly am not going to waste my life ingratiating myself to the locals. I owe them nothing. By definition, I have a legal right to live anywhere within EU borders. I shall continue to pick and choose as I see fit, without needing the permission of the indiginous population.

Besides, it's even obvious to a blind man that "integration" doesn't exist. It's just a stick to beat people with (as someone else said).

Don't worry, be happy!

Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
 

HBG, completely agree there.

Spanish people tend to be friendly towards foreigners, at least in general. Of course there are exceptions, just as everywhere: even between Spanish people you can clearly see a raise in xenophobia. But we tend to be more welcoming to foreigners (at least foreigners from outside Spain) than many other countries such as France and the UK, to name only two.

It's only recently that one can see more concern about illegal inmigration, etc, but I honestly think that for many people it's more an economic issue than actual racism. Do not forget that not too long ago we were a poor country that had to "export" people, we do understand how desperate people can get. I have distant family in many parts of the world because of this, just as many Spanish people. But equally let's not forget that we did fight to change things here too so people would have more choices that simply leave. Nothing is solved if people simply leave their countries, this only extends the problem when we talk great numbers.

When it comes to people from let's call it "Occidental background" and who clearly are not going to strain our economy, we normally welcome them with open arms. This is not the case in many countries who directly distrust and actually dislike foreigners, from the EU or not. Please let's not be hypocritical: all countries set up their preferences about admitting foreigners, trying to make sure that they will have means to support themselves, being retired or ready to work because they are needed. I'm not talking about being particularly rich or anything like that, just that very obviously and in my opinion with good sense, all countries in these times try to be a bit selective about who they grant access. Specially as the number of illegals grow out of control. Of course they cannot do this with EU citizens, but you only need to see the custom controls for non EU citizens, be it in the UK or Spain, or check the custom situation in Australia or USA for all foreigners...

But then, talking about EU members and in this particular case British ex pats living in Spain, I agree that many clearly do have an interest to get to know the country and it's people. I just feel sad for many others who so evidently don't. The fact that I often hear comments about foreigners in the UK also makes me react to this hypocritical double standard and evident disinterest in the "host" country which this time happens to be mine.

I understand that it is a personal option, and obviously my opinion is not going to change anything. I can only say again what I firmly believe: if you are to live for many years in another country by choice, you should at least show some interest in that country and it's people rather than simply living there for the sun, without mixing a bit with natives or learning a bit of their language. As I personally believe this is the correct way to facilitate integration, that is what I try to do living in the UK.

Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
 

Is facilitate integration another way of saying sublimation?

We are not Borg.

Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
 

Using the dictionary meaning of the word ... Combine with something to form a whole .... I live here with many others of varied nationalities....combining to form the whole population of Spain.

The second defination my dictionary gives me is ... make someone accepted within a social group. ...... I live here alone and no matter where I live I am not a group person. I live my life quietly with communication with the people around me if they/and I want it. The mountain village I have stayed in most of the year is predominately spanish, they welcomed me after first visit like a friend who had been away too long. They invite me to events and of all the ones I have talked with in my poor spanish they make a tremendous effort to communicate with me and I with them. We have had some good laughs and I long to go back.

Am I integrated ? I have no idea and don't think about it. I think I am accepted as I dont get hassles from neighbours nor people in street/cafes/bars/shop etc.

No matter where you live, you live your life, you either 'mix' or you don't. I think it is more mutally beneficial if you can at least rub along nicely with the community you live in. I don't live here for the sun, I live here because I like living here and it feels like home at least for now.

Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
 

No its not. But it is at least being able to sort things out at the local ayuntamiento, Drs, school or police station.

I was talking to a guy who works at the ayuntamiento in Benalmádena Pueblo the other day, he says it is amazing what they have to put up with every day. People coming to see them who dont speak a word of Spanish or know anything about the documents they need to live in Spain.

He says he knows British people who've been here 40 years and still can only say Hola

That certainly is not integration. In fact I see it as incredibly rude and arrogant. I feel sorry for the civil servants who have to sort out the mess for these people every day because they dont speak good Spanish and are too tight (or poor) to pay for a gestor or translator.

It is incredible the amount of Brits who seem to think you dont "need" to speak Spanish to live in Spain. Well, maybe you dont, but then make sure you have enough money for a gestor, private health insurance, international schools for your children and a translator on call for when you need them!

Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
 

Who cares anyway,..... as long as various peoples get along well together and take any contrasting customs and habits well in their stride ?

Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
 

The thing is they dont DD.

My tennis league starts next week. 78 Spaniards, 1 Brit and 1 American.

My football league starts the week after that. I've yet to meet another Brit there.

This is in area where there are 10,000s of British people, they just dont do anything Spanish people do. They surround themselves with other British people.

Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
 

Sounds like you are "integrated"......:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

As it means being comfortable in where you are and what you do.

Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
 

I agree with the points Evamar and Cricketman make.

I will never be, and it would be stupid to pretend I could, anything but English no matter what country I chose to live in. However, I chose to live in a country I felt an affinity with, that I felt shared some of the same values as my own (eg democracy, freedom of speech and tolerance) and some that my own used to have but that it seemed to me were being lost (decent standards of behaviour from children and adults alike, respect for the elderly, good public services, etc).

I wanted to learn the language of my new home so that I could communicate with my neighbours and make some new friends, deal independently with "officialdom" without feeling helpless or expecting any special arrangements to be made to facilitate matters for me, handle any emergencies that might arise and generally get the most out of life by being aware of what is going on both locally and further afield that I might like to take part in.

I don't go to every local event or feria by any means, only the ones that interest me, but I do participate in local events that are relevant to me, eg a series of public meetings organised by the Ayuntamiento as a consultation exercise about a large regeneration project taking place in my area over a 5 year period. If we don't take part in such things, IMO we are not then entitled to moan if we don't like the results.

It does annoy me, and make me sad, when British people tell me that they're not interested in such things as "they're nothing to do with us" (mind you, I used to feel exactly the same when canvassing during elections and having people on the doorstep saying they weren't interested in politics!). If I happen to mention in conversation that we've been to a concert or an item of local news from the paper, they say "how did you find out about that" in amazement, although there might be a poster stuck up on the wall opposite and the papers are available for all to read, online if you can't get out to pick them up.

The ones who really do make me angry, though, are those who refuse to consider themselves to be immigrants in Spain, using such excuses as "but we have money", "we benefit the Spanish economy", "they'd still be riding about on donkeys and working in the fields if it weren't for us" - and I've actually heard all of those said, more than once. Without exception, they are always the same people who go off on a rant at the slightest excuse about immigrants to the UK and cite them as one of the main reasons they left to live in Spain.

Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
 

good post, acceptance (on both sides) is the best that can be asked, integration takes centuries.
perhaps European will become a nationality but it will take a L O N G time, far more than we have.
rgds

Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
 

Correct, there are those that I refer to as "plastic Spanish" that seem to think by renouncing all things British (I only eat Spanish food, I only have Spanish friends, I never go back to UK, I only watch Spanish TV etc) they are instantly "integrated" and loved by the locals. They think it makes them somewhat superior to those that don't forego all things English. I'm a huge fan of learning the lingo, Spanish culture, have been for years, and would hate to live in a Brit ghetto, but what's wrong with watching a bit of UK TV, or an Indian/Chinese takeaway occasionally, or a visit back to UK to see friends and family? The Spanish near me I would say are all totally integrated, all speak excellent English, but put them together and they'll cook Spanish food, watch Spanish films/videos, talk in Spanish, and they even go back to Spain on a regular basis. To deliberately try to airbrush out your past seems a tad sad to me.

Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
 

I dont know anyone on this forum who fits that description

When we lived in Britain we (mainly) ate British food and watched British TV. Now we are in Spain, we eat (mainly) Spanish food and watch Spanish TV. It's only naturally, we're not renouncing anything

Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
 

That is the most sensible explanation of integration I've ever seem written on this site.....it's also very true, it should just feel natural. :)

K coming your way!

Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
 

Having asked this very question of my Spanish teacher in a 'forum' kind of debate in class last week, I was interested when the subject of integration started to rear its head in the other thread.
I think Capitan's Wench said what my feelings are, namely if you're a mixer you'll mix wherever you are and if you're solitary you'll do your own thing ditto. It's my perception that when there are mutterings and putterings about people not integrating in the UK it's usually that they're in 'ghettos' (yes, we could say that applies in some places here) but for me, critically, that they do not make much if any attempt to speak English. I would personally no more expect someone to be interested in British history than want to be 'made' to be interested in Spanish history/culture. I'm far keener on the wildlife! Without that cross-pollination of language you fall at the hurdle my teacher flagged up which was that Spanish people might, understandably have a totally skewed inaccurate view of 'us Brits' (or any other nationality) if we are not capable of expressing ourselves and giving away just a bit about what we think and feel. She has found herself telling people in the village what we are like: the people in her class - because there are assumptions made. Once dispelled by Ana, one of the hurdles is just a bit lower.
Her definition seemed to hinge much more on mutual understanding brought about by gentle and progressive conversation than anything else.
Oh...and make no mistake, expressing feelings and beliefs is a step up the language ladder that is important but so very very difficult:(
I can't remember who, but a couple of posters have said words to the effect of 'why worry what anyone thinks'... well it may not matter what others think, but it can't hurt to contemplate and debate can it? Which kind of covers off the JLFS/Megmet post too!!
ps not everyone on BE is elderly:rolleyes:

Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
 

:rofl:I don't like the sound of where you live much, it's certainly not like that around here.

Just to balance your comments on sports, Malaga football club has huge Brit support. And these are the Spanish National bowls squads.


LADIES

Ann Eagle
Sheila Cammack
Maggie Lawley
Chris Evans
Maggie Holmes
Jo Morris
Sheri Fletcher
Yvonne Briden
Lynn Greenland

MEN

Bill Pain
Paul Brown
Brian Robertson Jnr
Brian Robertson Snr
Nick Cole
Mick Johnson
Steve Pearson
Ian Kenyon
Joe Stamper
Derek Eldon

Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
 

gee you deserve a CDM for noble purpose

Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
 

and obviously don't play tennis or football or they would have got up at least one team

Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
 

Why does that balance my comments on sport jimenato. There is not a single Spaniard in that squad! Not exactly integrated, which was my point.

Malaga has a section of fans called the "guiri army" whoch suggests they they hang out together, instead of with Spaniards. Again, not integrated.

Btw, this doesnt bother me, I didnt come to Spain to talk to brits. I get my Brit-fix on this forum :)

Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
 

Oh there are British tennis players and football teams but they dont play in the offical leagues. Again I wonder why ;)

Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
 

how can you tell, have you got the next 2 upgrades to membership all in one go giving you the cctv on anyone who posts.
thats the subject for another thread - Are you elderly or just act that way on Forums ?
then there's another potential thread - what enhancements would you like to see to the BE Forum.?

Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
 

I dont see what is noble about it. It is done out of personal choice

Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
 

so who isnt inviting who ?
or is it just that the Brit teams have enough fixtures to not want to play anyone else not part of their circle ?

we have a cricket team made up 100% of Pakistani's, all Muslims, no Indian's, Nepalese, Lithuanians, just Pakistani's.
If it wasnt for the fact I am leaving the UK I might ask them if I could join the team, the same as I was considering joining the Womens Enterprise Centre, which has no male members.........

Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
 

I'm just a Lancashire Lass and country girl....I've never heard that expression before :o....explain please. :)

Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
 

too long with Spaniards, you have forgotten what irony is.

enjoy, thats what life is there for, we have far better choices and opportunities than our parents and grand parents every had.

Re: Define Integration. As distinct from immigration!
 

Well the Brits dont know how to join the Spanish leagues because they dont speak Spanish, read the local media or have local contacts. i.e. they are not integrated.

I played for a British team for a while in an unofficial summer league. We had a few Argentinean players and one Spanish player who were the best players in the team. The British players ignored all the Spanish speakers and agreed between themselves not to pass to them, even making them subs until eventually the Spanish speakers didnt turn up and the team was wholely British.

Small time xenophobic petty thinking. The reason why I stopped playing for them and now only play in the Spanish leagues where the players are friendly and welcoming.