Re: British standards ???
 

I daresay.

I would choose Iraq in a minute over Disney, but that may just be me.


Be that as it may, we could have a reasoned, reasonable discussion where you address my point about the validity of the use of statistics. I'm really not much interested in anything else.

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Statistics, statistics eh.
Maybe yours are also a bit misleading.

I stand to be corrected, but off the top of my head I would guess that the majority of black murders are actually black on black and of those I would guess that a good percentage are drug, turf war and gang related which you also conveniently omit.

Furthermore I would hazard a guess that many of those involved in such activities are far from poverty stricken.

If I am correct it kind of turns your point on it's head, but it's far too late in the evening for me to be wading through statistics, so I'll leave you to it..

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Er, they aren't omitted, they are right there for you to read. Which is why I posted the link, strangely enough. And as for "black on black" that is exactly what I said and is what the data shows. So I'm not sure what you are saying here.

You might hazard that guess, and you might be right. In general though, levels of violent crime are far higher in poor areas than in wealthy ones, at least in the US, and as far as I know, in most places. I would be willing to bet that a little research would bear that out. Drug and gang turf wars typically occur in poor areas, too, rather than in wealthy ones, and they are a product of those communities. The wealthy drug lords at the top recruit from the poor kids to do their dirty work, not among the Harvard bound.

I think you haven't quite got my point - which is that assuming that it is being Muslim that makes one blow stuff up is about as valid as saying that being black makes one commit violent crime.

My second point is also that as a percentage of a population, the % of the 1.6 billion Muslims who are blowing stuff up is pretty miniscule.

And my third point is that it is a risky and usually invalid assumption to generalize from the specific to the general - ie from the fact that some Muslims are blowing stuff up to the hypothesis that Muslims are dangerous per se - that makes about as much sense as saying that the USA and its inhabitants are dangerous per se, based on the rate of violent crime here. In both cases, it's an invalid assumption.

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Sorry to interrupt, but a couple of the previous posts in this thread are a bit close to the knuckle. Lets keep it civil ... thanks.


As you were .........

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As is the same with the mad Mullahs and their suicide bombers. In fact amid all the revenge attacks during the worse years of the Intifada many moderate Israelis began asking how to break the link between poorly educated Palestinians and their brain washing Mullahs and almost every answer came back with one word... Education.

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Yes, I think it could be you, but not just you, there are a couple of posters on BE who would probably prefer Iraq to Disney too.

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Probably not Iraq but Iran or maybe Afghanistan over Disney... or maybe southern Iraq then yeah, absolutely.

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I can´t see Iran taking over from Disney as a tourist destination, even if it does have its own version of FLOG IT.:rofl:

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Just had to go back to this.... Do you honestly believe this? Is this not like the whole "Stranger Danger" rubbish? If there were actually that many they would all be in custody, if they KNOW they are planning an attack and are "preparing" to attack then they have already broken the law.... so why aren't they in jail?

It's tosh, just like all the crap at the moment about benefit fraud and people coming over here for free NHS treatment, it's all so insignificant that it's not worth worrying about!

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No I don't believe it, I think there are more.:starsmile:

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I didn't post stats just what I remembered reading in news reports over the weekend.

Why not try Iraq they are always needing voluntary workers.

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You must live a terrified life then.

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Exactly, therein lies the crux of the problem.

Though how to educate those who have been totally brainwashed to hate by their parents from their earliest days in the cradle I know not.

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Most home grown terrorists and potential ones have been educated at University level. In fact Universities are the main recruitment centres.

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Well ironically it's something people complain about endlessly on here.... and I am talking in this case about the UK as I am assuming that's where your comment is based.... and that is by getting more and more involved in peoples lives, in being even more of a nanny state. For many just leaving certain communities to get on with it and adopting a hands off approach isn't an option, it's a recipe for disaster but if you step in and start telling people what to do most right leaning voters get their backs up and cry "Nanny State".

It's like the Gypsy community, education among Gypsy children is appalling, among Gypsy girls its even bloody worse, many are taken out of school at 11 to 14 years old, if they ever go to school at all, if you take kids out of school you decrease their options in life for finding a job... once they no longer have jobs they resort to the only thing they know what to do.... and where do they learn that from? The only role models they have in their lives... It's a vicious circle and it's no different among certain communities both here and around the world. If, lets say, a young boy only has a mad mullah as a role model and no food, no education except a 5th century book you are told is the word of god and you have nothing else because a bitter war has taken many people you know and love what else do you do?

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It was just a light-hearted remark - I forgot to insert the sense of humour smiley.

Iraq is a war zone, of course it's dangerous. Disney, if you have ever been there, is hell on earth in my book. It is a fantasy plastic life where you have to pay a vast amount of money to be shuttled around with hordes of people, and all of it conceived by Disney, a McCarthy stooge, quite possibly a Nazi sympathizer who did business with the reich, also quite possibly an extreme anti-Semite, anti-labour and if you read his original vision for the Epcot Center, not the warm and fuzzy creator of a cartoon world that you might imagine. But I digress.


Anyway, the culture of fear is pervasive and fosters the kind of society that I don't think we want to live in. The whole "terrorists round every corner" mentality is sad - though I have to say when I am in London it doesn't seem to me that people feel that way, whatever Mr. Parker's motives might be for saying such a thing. To date, the British people have mostly been too sensible and too down to earth to allow themselves to be whipped up in that way. Hope that characteristic remains.

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How many home grown terrorists are you on about? How many potential ones are out there? Stop believing the Red under the bed rhetoric Jacky, there are not tens of thousands of nasty muslims running around the streets just looking for the next victim! We have had a couple of attacks by muslims here in the UK and thousands by Christians..... thousands! Are you getting my point yet?

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You going to attempt to give a history lesson again:eek:

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To you? Maybe you need one. Have you forgotten the years that the Christian fanatics waged war on Britain, killing children and pregnant women, all to get what they wanted? Remember switching on the news most weeks and yet another bomb, or a scare or stories of yet another family dealing with the loss of a child?

Your paranoia is disproportionate Jacky and exactly what the terrorists and strangely enough, certain people in power are relying on.

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Education, food, safety, and a basic decent standard of living with hope for the future.

If only we could focus on providing those, how much better off would we all be. The amount of violence has only escalated since the "war on terror" began. Not surprising really.

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I would prefer to believe this than a couple of apologists on here. According to surveys so do most other people.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21878867

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Yes, we can tell you prefer to believe it. But the question is, is it a)true and b) does that make the UK such a dangerous place and c)What, if anything, does it say about "muslims" and their supposed inclination to violence. I lived in London during the height of the IRA bombings - there were a sight more explosions and deaths than there are now from "Muslims" and yet people still went on with their lives quite calmly.

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If you surveyed people they would also believe that the death penalty helps stop people murdering, that Diana was killed by Prince Phillip and not a pissed up driver and 9/11 was a set up to justify an invasion of Iraq.... all are not true, that won't stop them from believing it.


Question everything Jacky, even the police lie.

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Pretending it doesn't exist doesn't make it go away. Remember moderate Muslims were threatened last week. Soon most people will be afraid to stand up and be counted!



http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeeh...ke-it-go-away/

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No one is pretending it doesn't exist Jacky, in fact some of us here are actually discussing the issues surrounding it but you are completely unwilling to accept that in terms of a group of people we should be frightened of in the UK it's the Christians that pose the greatest threat! It's the long standing hatred that many have in the UK towards Muslims that not only drives the paranoia but also damages the trust between communities.

Not sure if you watched the Ottomans thing that was on BBC 2 on Sunday nights? It showed that Muslim, Jew and Christian can live perfectly well together until nationalism and isolationism gets involved.

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You aren't responding to what is being said.

Nobody is denying that there are acts of terrorism committed in the name of Islam, are they. I could also provide lists of all sorts of violence committed in the name of all sorts of things. But that wouldn't be very interesting or informative.

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I don't have to respond to what you are saying, it's a forum and you are a bully.

I live in the present. I am not scared or paranoid, otherwise I wouldn't visit London most weeks.

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Er, OK. I thought the point of a discussion was to respond to each other's points.

My mistake.

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I have to agree with some of what you say Matt, but when "radicals" take video's of beheading innocent hostages, or enter a packed wedding celebration and blow themselves and hundreds of people into oblivion or similar on a London Bus or Tube train - do you honestly expect people to think kindly towards people who are muslim, who were their pyjamas during the day, cover their women from head to toe in black. :confused:

OK the christian church dresses nuns in black, and christians, agnostics, even plain old heathens go round in tracksuits all day. Although I am not sure about those who allow their women to dress in the skimpyest of clothing, leaving little to the imagination.

Someone somewhere will say that a wrong has to be righted, perhaps going back decades or even centuries. But you don't see the modern Romans running around killing people because they lost their huge empire.
It is about time things moved to a truce, yes it will be an uneasy one for a long time, but both sides have to take responsibility for sorting out their radicals, who are the ones causing the majority of problems, to maintain that peace.

`

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*sigh*

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Well said by someone who prefers to hide their previous posts. If I wanted to respond and quote something you said it would mean trawling all the posts to find it.

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No and I absolutely agree with you Dom, it's almost impossible to rationalise in the face of such anger and aggression but as we saw with the IRA and their like aggression, violence and reprisals against them just don't work. We need to come up with a better idea, even some hardline Israelis agree that something has to be done to change the mindset that dictates it's perfectly OK to strap a bomb to your chest and take innocent people to their doom. I think we can agree though, isolating the Muslim community by making them the new bogeyman can only end in disaster. My point thought this whole thread has been that there are SO many muslims here in the world and so few of them are evil.... Painting them ALL as evil just breeds more evil and resentment. What is tell tell is how in fully integrated Muslim communities the idea of killing themselves and innocent people is considered vile. It's in the closed communities that those beliefs thrive.

I guess in a way that comes back to the original thread subject, faith schools.

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I'm sorry, but I have no idea what you mean by "hide my previous posts". My post count doesn't show on the left because I chose that option in my profile. You can find all my posts (though I don't know why anyone would want to) in the same way you can for everyone else. Just click on my name there on the left and choose "find more posts by".

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Allow? THEIR women? Are you not falling into the category of regarding women as some kind of personal property there?

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We now have a second little blond girl found with a Roma family this time in Ireland.
No one would be so stupid as to brand thisentire community as traffickers n children so why are some in such a rush to condemn the majority of those who follow the Islamic faith.
I would have thought that anyone with a basic O level education of the history of the last 100 years would be aware of how easy it is to slip from predjudice to race hate and eventually into genocide, from Turks n Armenia, communists in the Ukraine and much of Russia, the Nazis, Serbs, Hutus etc etc etc.
I was in a London hotel when an IRA bomb was detonated in a nearby street, I used to visit NI during the troubles but as JT said I just got on with life and the threat to life was magnitudes higher then from the IRA/UDF etc than from fringe groups who follow Islam.
What was it Roosevelt said about " Fearing Fear itself" ?
We in the UK may face a threat from a tiny % of the native muslim community but the bigger threat to the UK as we know it may come from Chinese economic dominance of the worlds economy and declning rescources.

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not me Lynn, just commenting on others attitudes.

I have never, ever, treated a woman as a piece of personal property
Do you think I should ??
but its getting a bit late for me to change now ;)

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Well, I think you have said something very relevant. All this stuff about religion is often loaded against women having the right to live their own lives as they wish. It seems that the main religions are written by men, for men. The sooner both men and women cop on to this the better. then perhaps the "standards" can be more flexible.

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I agree, and to my mind it is not compatible to defend womens rights and defend Islam in the same breath.

Those that do are not being honest with themselves or others.

And there is no place for such discrimination of women in the UK.

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however, although the largest, Islam isn't the only religion that doesn't afford the same rights as Christianity would appear appear to do

~

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You are correct, there is nothing that is compatible with anything else!
These writings appear to be written for men by men. All appear to be anti female. Stoning women appears to be some form of global past-time.
Try to look beyond Islam, see the bigger picture. "They, not necessarily Islam" appear to be out to get you and your kind!
Then again it is all about interpretation and how people choose to interpret what is before them.