If prison worked, I would agree with what the latest posters have said, but it doesn't. Those teenage girls, who have never been in trouble before, will now be in Holloway, among the dykes and drug dealers who reside there. They will be punished all right, but they will not be rehabilitated.

Their male counterparts will be in places like Wandsworth, where the old lags will teach them their trade.

When they come out, recidivist figures have shown that they are most likely to re-offend, some 90% of them do.

The UK already locks up more offenders than most other country in the world, and has one of the highest crime rates to justify such folly. I'm not clever enough to delve too far into a subject like penology, but I wish we were more like the Scandinavian countries where the opposite happens. They have low prison populations and low crime rates.

And they don't have riots.

It would be interesting to see how the family units work in these countries, along with the benefit payments plus the level of immigration.

I have just been looking at MSN and have been rather surprised that since 1976 there have been 19 riots in GB. I did not think that it was that high.

Graham

Nor did I. That's terrifying. What are we doing wrong?

We used to send them to Australia, is there anywhere else we can send them to?

Oh yes they do !

I've only spent limited time in Norway and Denmark but a great deal of time in Sweden where I've watched things going downhill fast during the past twenty years and especially more recently.
Knifings,shootings,gang and turf warfare, all common, many businesses and areas controlled by the mafia with virtually zero interference from the law
Soccer hooliganism much as we used to know it is also common and getting worse.
They also operate a nanny state to an even greater degree than the UK.
Physical punishment is illegal both in homes and schools.
The main problem is the complacent attitude of both police and authorities.
Crime figures may appear lower but as the cops rarely even bother attend the scene of crimes let alone bring about prosecutions that is quite understandable.
Oh and for riots, check out Malmo, fairly regular there.

Other countries like Sweden, Germany and particularly Spain, have had high levels of immigration. There is unrest from time to time, but it's not on the UK scale, certainly not the high level of looting. Contrast the indignados with the uk riots.
What may be more relevant is that the UK has the highest rate of teenage pregnancies in the EU. But even then, there are plenty of kids raised by single parents who don't do this type of thing.
I fear that it was basically youngsters getting a buzz out of doing this type of thing. They saw on the tv in the initial couple of days that the police had been less than robust, and thought (wrongly as it turned out) that they could get away with stealing stuff. Half the stuff they stole wasn't even wanted!
I just wish the law and order forces had been a bit quicker (especially on the 2 days after the first outbreak in Tottenham, when they were caught off-guard) to clamp down and thus deter copycat riots.
Although we're shown the nasty stuff - innocents being mugged, properties burnt down - I don't think a majority of those who took part did those things or were evil. They were just there for the buzz, although there were also nastier elements who took advantage of the confusion. But the consequences have been very serious, so all who took part and are apprehended, run the risk of serious punishments. I just hope they convict the nasty ones who committed arson or mugged people in the street.

Our Norwegian friends complain about the same things as the British. Immigration, single parents, benefits etc. We are not always aware what goes off in other countries. There were riots in Spain a few years ago, burning cars in madrid etc. France has had quite a few too.

Zero tolerance is needed not the soft policing which is clear does not work. One small thing it is not an offence to swear at police in the UK it is in Spain.

http://www.diariosur.es/v/20110813/m...-20110813.html

I think that is where part of the problem lies. The response was a "thin blue line" walking down the street. Brave perhaps but more foolhardy, as there were not enough support teams available. Was there any intelligence prior or during that people were being called to bolster the riots?

One scene on the news last night showed 14 big heavy policemen in riot gear knocking down front door and entering a flat to arrest one guy. Ok he may have had a similar number of "mates" there with him but.... do you think that is reasonable when arresting someone in his own home for looting. ??

I thought we had been sending them to Spain.

Agree, maybe there weren't enough initially but police will normally operate on minimum manning, to get hundreds, if not thousands more on the street takes quite a while. People have been criticising it as if it was just a matter of flicking a switch and they appear. It's like the London Fire Brigade,many live miles away from London, even down on the south coast. You could argue perhaps they should have been forewarned, better prepared, who knows, I certainly don't. Certainly I don't think anyone could have predicted that it would turn into one of the biggest riots ever. If ever there was a body that is "damned if they do, damned if they don't" it's the police.
Agree with the number arresting a suspect as well, I gave up counting them as they filed through the door.

A highly commendable attitude to take. In the UK I would dare fix a hole for fear of being sued by someone claiming to trip on my repair, or the council for daring to do it.

As for the rest tho, you get a gold star for being socially aware. You sum it up best with the graffiti. Clean off the first one, and there is unlikely to be another. Fail to, and the whole damn wall will be defaced.

Yeah. This sums it up nicely. Basically you know that the legal system isn't working when it can't take the smirk off a looter's face.

Prison is basically a way of making bad people worse. If you study it, it appears almost to be set up in such a way as to maximise recidivism. Again, if you talk like this, you are jumped on by those who believe that the only way to go is more punishment.

Yeah. Scare the crap out of them. People are at their bravest in their own territory, and more likely to put up a fight. What looks like 500 coppers in riot gear knocking down the door and grabbing the criminal scares the crap out of them and makes them go limp.

as it all started as a peaceful rally by predominately women and children to protest about Mr Duggan's death the ending of which was suddenly hijacked by certain elements it was probably a "spontaneous" thing.
however, subsequent television interviews were showing up that many were upset at the "Association" laws, something I had never heard of living out in the sticks.
There subsequently looking at day 1 to have been no rhyme or reason for the setting fire, looting etc etc which occurred at that time. the businesses concerned were totally innocent and which locals are saying are going to be missed. however the setting fire of a building which has occupied flats above is at least as reckless as the throwing of extinguisher off the roof, if not much higher level, such as attempted manslaughter. (not a legal so don't know)

no, it isnt possible to flick a switch, open a box or whatever. people have to be on standby round the corner to be a credible response. asking rioters to wait until the 22.10 has arrived from Brighton and the guys get kitted up before doing their worst just isnt going to work.
this does however bring up the distances people travel for work on a daily basis to be discussed at another time. after all they were off shift.
but I see the excuses for days 2 & 3 getting weaker, but by then it had happened in other places - like Worcester thats surely in the centre of middle england, jolly hockysticks etc.

yes i gave up counting on the first showing but it was repeated on the later news so counted and I am sure it was 14 thru door before scene was shifted to him being removed from building. there may have been more go thru after that!!