teuchterpete

Apologies if this has surfaced before, but I "bumped into" this:

https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/354
regarding notes 8&9.
does this mean that whatever the outcome of negotiations, and especially regarding the 5 year criterian. We can all breathe a sigh of relief and keep on living here ( legally) as we are now?
Pete

Fred James

Yes, that's correct. In addition to that, if you have been in Spain for 5 years you should have a "residency" certificate that clearly states that you have a permanent right of residence. That cannot change as it was issued under the EU residency directive and as Spain intends to remain in the EU then that cannot change.

There has been some publicity about the right of residents to bring in family members from outside the EU. Under the EU law that is allowed, without proof of their income. The same applies in the UK, but Mother Theresa thinks otherwise and wishes to stop that after Brexit. The EU has said that if you do that, we will not allow Brits to do that any more. I think they could do that as we would no longer be EU citizens so the EU directive would not allow that automatically. However, I can't see that being a show-stopper for most of us unless you have a mail order bride coming in from outside the EU.

MikeJ

Although, unless you go the whole hog and get Spanish citizenship, it looks as if you will not have the free movement across the other EU states any more. You'll have to stay where you are - bitter blow

bobd22

To be honest I see that as fair. We can't have our cake and eat it.

teuchterpete

My main concern was that I only got my first ( and therefore temporary) residency last May, however the Vienna convention seems to imply that this is irrevelant " residency is residency" irrespective of what is finally thrashed out by those "nice" people in Whitehall/Brussels, or so I hope!
Pete

teuchterpete

So what happens when we, or any other non-EU national, cross the border into France, for example on the AP7? Do we have to seek out the nearest customs post?

bobd22

To be honest I am more concerned at simply being able to retire to our house in Spain that we bought for that very purpose. To that end even though not there full time currently I am considering obtaining the basic over 90 day residency. Down side I would need to pay for health insurance until I get state pension in 17 months. I would see that though as investing for our future.

Boseley

Long before the EU we travelled across Europe, one instance I remember, was on the 5th of November 1961, I crossed the channel on a ferry to Calais, caught the Paris express, got off at Amien and caught another train to Rouen, I did this without a visa, without a passport, without owt.

Maybe after the U.K. ditches the EU, things might revert to what they were 56 years ago, happy days.

Fred James

Thjere is a big difference between freedom of movement and the right to stay for more than 90 days. At the moment, if you have permanet residency in Spain you can "transfer" that right to another EU stae. That is what the issue is as potentially that will no longer apply.

As for movement across the Schengen borders, they have no way of controlling this as effectively there are no borders. When you try and enter the Schengen area from outside the EU, you normally get a Schengen visa that allows you to travel within the area. I would be inclined to assume that permanent residency in Spain would count as a Schengen visa and allow free movement, but staying for more than 90 days would be an issue, just as it is with people from a third with only a Schengen visa.

rachelk

I like that interpretation and I hope you're right.

It's the right to residence that really worries me though. I've worked both in Spain and in other non-EU countries. In Spain I had/have the right to live, regardless of employment sitiuation. Elsewhere my residency permit has always been tied to my contract. That's what I don't want to happen in the EU.

bobd22

That is a concern of course but given the residency as I see it temporary for five years but that then becomes permanent hopefully that will remain the same until we actually leave. It now seems that could well be after March 2019. It is the UK that is muddying the waters from what I read. Trouble is as always we must wait and see, the initial plan from UK seemed sketchy at best now they don't seem to have a clue or real plan, it seems to be changing everytime they meet EU negotiaters.

amideislas

Travelling is one thing, residency is another. At present, you have the "right" of residency. Non-EU States do not. Post-brexit English citizens likely will not.

Will post-brexit English citizens retain that "right"? It's up in the air. It depends on the outcome of the "negotiations", which so far, are ambiguous at best, and Britain has yet to exhibit any clue what it's negotiating.

I think at present, the best way to proceed is simply to assume those "rights" will no longer be an option, unless of course, you already have them, in that case, you'll likely be granted the "right" to stay, even if Britain refuses to reciprocate, and in that case, you'll no longer be eligible for "free" healthcare via the NHS.

Otherwise, the most "secure" option is to apply for EU citizenship in an EU member state. And even in that case, you'll still be on the hook to pay for healthcare, as is common in most of "the rest of the world" (although it's generally less expensive in Europe).

MikeJ

I believe a couple of sticking points are EU demands not just UK intransigence
For example:

a) The EU want EU citizens granted residence in the UK to still be covered by the ECHR ie above UK law which all the rest of us will be subject to.
b) That EU citizens granted residency in the UK will have the right for relatives to join them now and in the future - and not subject to any new immigration rules that the UK might implement.

Neither of these conditions will be available to UK citizens granted residence in EU countries.

Fred James

These conditions are currently in force in Spain and could be lost. However, if the UK gives in then they would almost certainly be allowed. Basically, both the EU and the UK would still be bound by the EU residency directive.

rspltd

Contrary to what you might have read in the papers you get in Spain, the UK has made very clear what they want and as stated above, the sticking point seems to be the unreasonable demands of the EU, No other sovereign country in the world accepts the decisions of another's Courts. The EU is also insisting that the UK must continue to pay child benefit after we have left. Currently the UK pays child benefit of about £50million to Polish children the majority of which have never been to the UK. Go whistle does seem appropriate.