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Re: Ramadan Kareem !
Originally Posted by redShark
(Post 10668258)
People who are used to the illusion of alcohol can never understand the Islamic spirituality and I can understand why; Alcohol promises an alternative comfort to the islamic faith. That's why islam is a fierce enemy of alcohol.s
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Re: Ramadan Kareem !
Originally Posted by Boomhauer
(Post 10668880)
I have come across innumerable theists who are drinkers and atheists / agnostcs who are moderate to occasionkal drinkers. Point is , there really isn't a connection between drinking and atheism / agnosticism.
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Re: Ramadan Kareem !
Originally Posted by britexpat76
(Post 10669063)
I think there are several million Irish Roman Catholics who will dispel that myth............!
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Re: Ramadan Kareem !
Originally Posted by redShark
(Post 10668258)
Ok let me elaborate more, In my own experience Trying to explain the mystique of fasting in Islam to some one ( specially the young) heavily involved with alcohol has always been to no avail. People who are used to the illusion of alcohol can never understand the Islamic spirituality and I can understand why; Alcohol promises an alternative comfort to the islamic faith. That's why islam is a fierce enemy of alcohol. That also explains my own observation as to why most athiests that i've come across are actually heavy drinkers
As to your--obviously limited--experience of non-believers: Well, if you live in a society where alcohol is not freely available and the majority of the population is Muslim, it is logical that the majority of the drinkers you meet (or rather those who openly admit to it) are not going to be the people whose social mores are opposed to drinking. As another poster has said, go to Bahrain of a weekend, or get on a western-airlines flight heading out of Saudi and observe who drinks what. I was on a flight the other week, out of Dubai--a very personable Saudi struck up a conversation with me (I helped him fill out his immigration card), and he offered me some of the large bottle of Chivas Regal, bought in Duty Free, he was getting stuck into (I declined, I tend not to drink on aircraft). I know a lot of Christians who drink, and a lot of non-believes who don't drink. I also know a lot of Muslims who drink. You need to validate your opinions. |
Re: Ramadan Kareem !
Originally Posted by mikewot
(Post 10668740)
OK, so you've not even attempted to answer what I asked. Instead you seem to rely on some very peculiar interpretation of atheist = alcoholic = I will not answer the question.
Ignore alcohol, as I asked you previously, and tell us why muslim fasting is such a good thing. please. Shukran. Health wise, it has now become an established fact that fasting or subjecting the body to some form of food deprivation is a very good technique for the health of the body, check this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today...00/9743041.stm Also, as mammals we are not supposed to be eating on regular bases. Mother nature/God did not create our body for such a dietary system. All Mammals are supposed to be searching and browsing for food in the wilderness, it may take a whole day just to manage to eat one meal. That is how the human body is designed. Now let’s come back to the Islamic fasting; A typical fasting muslim would spend nearly 8% of his total life starving, the equivalent of 5 years of his life is actually spent in starvation. So you can look upon the month of Ramadan as a regulator that brings humanity closer to their true nature. As for the spiritual aspect of fasting, ask any spiritual person from any religious discipline, and he could easily tell you that a human soul thrives when the flesh is deprived of its pleasures. This is in fact, the very doctrine the early Christian Monkery was based on. Let me summarize to you the essence of the Islamic faith. Islamic faith is a creed based on a concept that the natural habitat for human existance is a place in heaven, which further implies that life on earth is unnatural for the human beings. This concept can actually explain why we the humans are so perfectionst in our expectations of life; We are mentally wired up to expect a heavenly type of life. Just look at what every human being’s wish is- To be young and healthy for ever. This is why the concept of life after death is so incredibly deeply rooted in the mind of a Muslim believer. Those who quoted examples of Muslims who drink alcohol did not read my post properly, otherwise they could have seen that I was not talking about the non-muslims, I was talking about alcohol illusion versus the Islamic faith. Islamic faith is acquired and not granted, no one was ever born with it. Quran was clear about it from the beginning. When some converts to islam started calling themselves believers, a Quranic verse was revealed to tell them not to do so, but rather to call themselves only Muslims, until a real understanding and faith develop in their hearts. |
Re: Ramadan Kareem !
Originally Posted by redShark
(Post 10669626)
I would normally avoid this question if it came from an atheist, simply because there are no common grounds to sustain a discussion on religious mystiques if he does not believe in the existence of God in the first place. But maybe I can attempt to tackle that question from a different angle.
Health wise, it has now become an established fact that fasting or subjecting the body to some form of food deprivation is a very good technique for the health of the body, check this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today...00/9743041.stm Also, as mammals we are not supposed to be eating on regular bases. Mother nature/God did not create our body for such a dietary system. All Mammals are supposed to be searching and browsing for food in the wilderness, it may take a whole day just to manage to eat one meal. That is how the human body is designed. Now let’s come back to the Islamic fasting; A typical fasting muslim would spend nearly 8% of his total life starving, the equivalent of 5 years of his life is actually spent in starvation. So you can look upon the month of Ramadan as a regulator that brings humanity closer to their true nature. As for the spiritual aspect of fasting, ask any spiritual person from any religious discipline, and he could easily tell you that a human soul thrives when the flesh is deprived of its pleasures. This is in fact, the very doctrine the early Christian Monkery was based on. Let me summarize to you the essence of the Islamic faith. Islamic faith is a creed based on a concept that the natural habitat for human existance is a place in heaven, which further implies that life on earth is unnatural for the human beings. This concept can actually explain why we the humans are so perfectionst in our expectations of life; We are mentally wired up to expect a heavenly type of life. Just look at what every human being’s wish is- To be young and healthy for ever. This is why the concept of life after death is so incredibly deeply rooted in the mind of a Muslim believer. Those who quoted examples of Muslims who drink alcohol did not read my post properly, otherwise they could have seen that I was not talking about the non-muslims, I was talking about alcohol illusion versus the Islamic faith. Islamic faith is acquired and not granted, no one was ever born with it. Quran was clear about it from the beginning. When some converts to islam started calling themselves believers, a Quranic verse was revealed to tell them not to do so, but rather to call themselves only Muslims, until a real understanding and faith develop in their hearts. You come on here, a site dedicated to British expats, and seems to have actually no knowledge whatsoever of the liberal British view of tolerance. Yes I know some British people have unfortunate racist views, but the vast majority have a 'live -and- let-live view' You however have a very negative singular and unrepentive outlook. |
Re: Ramadan Kareem !
Originally Posted by Bahtatboy
(Post 10669116)
Has it never crossed your mind to critically examine your belief system? Not discard it, but just try looking at it from a different angle? So that you can better understand it, and also understand why there are so many rational arguments--put forward by intelligent, rational people--against all religions, not just yours in particular. Why does Islam prohibit alcohol? Try using a rational thought process, involving people living in hot countries + limited drinking water + long periods without water. Why does Islam prohibit eating port? Try researching the various diseases that you can get from eating undercooked pork--far worse and more numerous than those from, say, beef or lamb, and pork goes off very quickly. And pigs aren't particularly clean animals. So not ideally suited to a hot, arid climate.
As to your--obviously limited--experience of non-believers: Well, if you live in a society where alcohol is not freely available and the majority of the population is Muslim, it is logical that the majority of the drinkers you meet (or rather those who openly admit to it) are not going to be the people whose social mores are opposed to drinking. As another poster has said, go to Bahrain of a weekend, or get on a western-airlines flight heading out of Saudi and observe who drinks what. I was on a flight the other week, out of Dubai--a very personable Saudi struck up a conversation with me (I helped him fill out his immigration card), and he offered me some of the large bottle of Chivas Regal, bought in Duty Free, he was getting stuck into (I declined, I tend not to drink on aircraft). I know a lot of Christians who drink, and a lot of non-believes who don't drink. I also know a lot of Muslims who drink. You need to validate your opinions. :goodpost: Redshark are you really muslim ? Do you understand the concepts of Ramadan ? Skipping a meal or 2 is not a key reason why Ramadan is one of the pillars of Islam - the health aspect is an additional benefit. What about the greater good of discipline, charity and self-control ? |
Re: Ramadan Kareem !
Originally Posted by Bahtatboy
(Post 10669116)
Has it never crossed your mind to critically examine your belief system? Not discard it, but just try looking at it from a different angle? So that you can better understand it, and also understand why there are so many rational arguments--put forward by intelligent, rational people--against all religions, not just yours in particular. Why does Islam prohibit alcohol? Try using a rational thought process, involving people living in hot countries + limited drinking water + long periods without water. Why does Islam prohibit eating port? Try researching the various diseases that you can get from eating undercooked pork--far worse and more numerous than those from, say, beef or lamb, and pork goes off very quickly. And pigs aren't particularly clean animals. So not ideally suited to a hot, arid climate.
As to your--obviously limited--experience of non-believers: Well, if you live in a society where alcohol is not freely available and the majority of the population is Muslim, it is logical that the majority of the drinkers you meet (or rather those who openly admit to it) are not going to be the people whose social mores are opposed to drinking. As another poster has said, go to Bahrain of a weekend, or get on a western-airlines flight heading out of Saudi and observe who drinks what. I was on a flight the other week, out of Dubai--a very personable Saudi struck up a conversation with me (I helped him fill out his immigration card), and he offered me some of the large bottle of Chivas Regal, bought in Duty Free, he was getting stuck into (I declined, I tend not to drink on aircraft). I know a lot of Christians who drink, and a lot of non-believes who don't drink. I also know a lot of Muslims who drink. You need to validate your opinions. |
Re: Ramadan Kareem !
Originally Posted by nonthaburi
(Post 10669699)
As I understand it the reason why Islam prohibits alcohol is that you are more likely to commit sins under the influence as you are not thinking clearly . It's probably a fair point too when you look at the things many people do when pissed that they probably wouldn't do sober . This belief is not unique to Islam . Buddhism contains the same idea .
The other reason was that those who went to the coffee houses of the time and partook of alcohol were blabbermouths and given to bad mouthing people without good reason and were therefore considered people of low esteem, given their inability to watch what they said. |
Re: Ramadan Kareem !
Originally Posted by nonthaburi
(Post 10669699)
As I understand it the reason why Islam prohibits alcohol is that you are more likely to commit sins under the influence as you are not thinking clearly . It's probably a fair point too when you look at the things many people do when pissed that they probably wouldn't do sober . This belief is not unique to Islam . Buddhism contains the same idea .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temperance_movement Circumscribing alcoholic intake is very much a communal social conservative agenda arising from the fear that it will lead to socital ills and god forbid women having relationships with males that society does not approve of. Same mentality is one of the driving forces behind social conservatives opposing MJ legalisation. |
Re: Ramadan Kareem !
Originally Posted by OleJanx
(Post 10669704)
Some of the reasons. if not the ultimate reason, was that wobbling out half cut into dune country and desert was highly detrimental to health.
The other reason was that those who went to the coffee houses of the time and partook of alcohol were blabbermouths and given to bad mouthing people without good reason and were therefore considered people of low esteem, given their inability to watch what they said. |
Re: Ramadan Kareem !
Originally Posted by Boomhauer
(Post 10669719)
The Temperance Movement and Prohibition in the US was heavily influenced by Christian preachers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temperance_movement Circumscribing alcoholic intake is very much a communal social conservative agenda arising from the fear that it will lead to socital ills and god forbid women having relationships with males that society does not approve of. Same mentality is one of the driving forces behind social conservatives opposing MJ legalisation. |
Re: Ramadan Kareem !
Originally Posted by Kix
(Post 10668907)
I'm an atheist and some might say an alcoholic. Does that make me condemned to an afterlife in hell?
And if it does exist I'll see you there! Mines a pint! |
Re: Ramadan Kareem !
Originally Posted by nonthaburi
(Post 10669720)
So damaging the body given by God and committing bad acts.
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Re: Ramadan Kareem !
Originally Posted by jam25mack
(Post 10669730)
What afterlife.....;)
And if it does exist I'll see you there! Mines a pint! |
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