Norm_uk

There was no outcry from the Arab world when Indonesia did what it did in East Timor either. Nor any huge outcry when the Muslim militias raped, killed and enslaved hundreds of thousands in Darfour.

It's not that the Palestinians are not suffering or that no one cares or wants to belittle their plight. It's that the issue and conflict is actually quite small in the scale of other conflicts around the world yet the Israel/Palestinian conflict gets much more attention from Western and Arab media and there are huge biases in both camps.

N.

Norm_uk

I think more could be achieved with non-violent action.

India achieved more with non-violence against the British Empire than it ever did with violence.

Violence only breeds violence. Teaching children to hate from birth will never solve anything or create peace for anyone.

N.

still.unsure

neither. unfortunately there doesn't seem to be any balance to any of the reporting on this effort as there is only a very limited media presence inside gaza at present and (though their own courts have ruled it illegal... go figure) the israeli's are preventing any media into the gaza strip.

so, all we have to go on is the observations from outside, trying to balance the reports from within, and the history of the conflict.

i'm not inside gaza, but that doesn't mean i can't hope that israel, the more powerful in the conflict, could show some restraint and reduce the civilian casualties. as for hamas firing rockets into israel, this needs to stop, obviously.

MacScot

...shocking footage currently on Channel 125 Channel NBN of the aftermath of the Israeli attack on a mosque tonight and scores of casualties in hospital..

Ray

I agree ..we just get the propaganda from all sides

But it really seems one side just does not want peace ..so it
will just go on and on ..

still.unsure

only one side wants peace? i think there's a few liberties taken their by each sides public declarations(spelling) of their own desire for peace...

Ray

Thats not what I said ... don't read what is not there

still.unsure

sorry, so one side in this conflict does not want to stop fighting, is that what you're saying?

does that mean that one side sees nothing better than killing and being killed? sees some intrinsic advantage from the poverty and destruction? has absolutely no desire to return to a peaceful existence?

Ray

Hamas has always stated that the eradication of Israel is the reason for their being and that will never change.. they say ..

Squirty Cream

I agree - non-violence, dialogue and tolerance are the only way.

You'd think in this day and age human beings would have moved beyond violence, but we haven't. And with the internet and satellite tv we are more aware of all the violence going on in the world than ever before. Yet do we stop ? No we don't, because basically we have learned nothing from the past, in fact we just go on developing newer, higher tech weapons capabilities for the richer countries to use and sell off our old military hardware to the poorer nations.

And that's excluding all the gang and street related violence going on in the world which is just as degrading and causes huge amounts of damage to society.

Worldismine

And did America free itself from colonialism by talking? Although over time they have become what they were born resisting.

As for Palestinians voting for Hamas, the west also voted for Bush and gave Blair a second spell despite knowing he was responsible for the deaths of 100000s of people in land 1000s of miles away that did not pose any threat to the UK, yet alone displace its citizens etc, so anyone that believes the Palestinians knew what they were getting into and are somehow responsible, are also justifying Al-Qaeda's argument about western civilians.

Pretty much everyone in Gaza is related to, or knows, someone who has been killed or seriously maimed by the Israeli. All Palestinians live with the indignity of occupation on a daily basis, and the injustice of being second class citizens to settlers who are given a free reign by the IDF. Gaza, although not occupied for the past several years, is the worlds largest prison and in fact most Gazans would find the living conditions of Wormwood scrubs better than Gaza. They suffer the indignity of having their airspace, border and imports controlled by the Zionist entity. If all you "violence is not the way", or "Hamas are terrorist" people lived under the conditions of Gazans, bearing in mind the past 60 years aswell, would you renounce violence? Would you condemn Hamas, bearing in mind you don't condemn your own armies?

Inselaffen

America didnt free itself from colonialism. It just switched power from English rule to rule by the colonists. Same thing that happened in Rhodesia.

still.unsure

very true, but as exemplified by the fatah v hamas battles of '06 & '07, i don't believe it's fair to say that hamas = all palestinians.

at present, i don't think it matters much any more, israel has just started a ground offensive so any hope of a ceasation of hostilities is moot, it just won't happen now and even more innocents will be slaughtered. *sigh*

interesting to note the timing of all this. immediately at the end of the ceasefire and right during the period of transition in the US, the holiday season, and now the ground offensive on a weekend knowing full well that most of the international pressure won't be 'available' until monday/tuesday when the UN goes back to work after the break.

"right, bloody nice xmas break, how was yours? ok, what's happened whilst i was away?"

Norm_uk

What makes things worse is we as a species are still teaching our children to hate other people. We are still deluded into thinking that it is acceptable for our children to be label as "Christian, Jew or Muslim" when we would never accept "Republican, Tory or Communist". We allow the mistakes of our ancestors to prevail from generation to generation - tolerating doctrines and beliefs that do not promote inclusiveness and praising systems that divide us, often on grounds of belief and culture alone.

On the subject of newer military hardware I will say this: Modern bombs and rockets are a lot more accurate than they were in our grandparents time.

During WWII carpet bombing was common in an attempt to hit something of worth - generally entire city districts were taken out just to hit a few factories or some HQ. Tens of thousands of innocents would be killed.

Modern warfare has reduced the numbers of innocents being killed by bombs and rockets to the tens and hundreds when a miss occurs.

N.

Norm_uk

The American war of independence was a civil war between British troops and British colonists - completely different from the Israel-Arab conflict.

Perhaps what has gone on in Ireland is more comparable...and it's clear to see more has been achieved through diplomacy than bombs and killings.

Violence only works against an enemy with no conscience that has no interest in peace (hence it worked against Hitler etc). No one seems to have tried non-violence in the Arab-Israeli conflict yet which I find sad because violence almost always breeds more violence.

Let me ask a question that might seem controversial or insensitive (although it is not my intention so please don't take it the wrong way): Why don't the many Arab countries with their vast lands and oil wealth invite the Palestinians to come and live with them and forget about the tiny bits of land next to Israel which are practically worthless?

N.