Burka Ban
Apr 19th 2011, 11:22 am
#91
MODERATOR
Joined: Dec 2004
Location: Dubai
Posts: 6,373
Re: Burka Ban
I won't bring Beck up again. To me he's a complete clown and not to be taken seriously, although he probably is taken far too seriously by some in America.
As for Hitler and socialism...Hmm, we've had this discussion before. It's not really helping anyone or contributing anything by trying to say Hitler belonged to "your lot" or this lot or that lot. It could be argued that the far extremes of left and right come full circle and there's a lot of overlap. He was off the scale at both ends.
I don't think names mean a lot either. North Korea call themselves "Democratic" and so did East Germany, and I don't think Mr Marx had the likes of Stalin and Pol Pot in mind when he came up with his ideas on economic systems. The point about religion is a good one, because ideologies of all kinds are often born of high and admirable values, but become corrupted by human greed and selfishness and a need to control.
As for Hitler and socialism...Hmm, we've had this discussion before. It's not really helping anyone or contributing anything by trying to say Hitler belonged to "your lot" or this lot or that lot. It could be argued that the far extremes of left and right come full circle and there's a lot of overlap. He was off the scale at both ends.
I don't think names mean a lot either. North Korea call themselves "Democratic" and so did East Germany, and I don't think Mr Marx had the likes of Stalin and Pol Pot in mind when he came up with his ideas on economic systems. The point about religion is a good one, because ideologies of all kinds are often born of high and admirable values, but become corrupted by human greed and selfishness and a need to control.
I think Marx is flawed in that his view of society is based on the tail end of the Victorian era and the injustices that existed then. Sometimes when you hear Marxists screaming and yelling about capitalism you have to wonder if they live in the 19th or 21st Century with it's modern medicine, more universal suffrage, equal rights laws and far higher standards of living. It seems more about finding something to be bitter about and advocating violent or underhand means to achieve the goal of forced equality than any kind of movement for social good in most cases.
N.
Apr 19th 2011, 11:54 am
#92
Account Closed
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 754
Re: Burka Ban
Whoever said Britain should live in a frozen state similar to North Korea for example?
What do the Victorians have to do with social norms in modern society? They covered up even more than we do...if anything a burka would be less offensive to them than to us. Also, even to Victorians we have some common ground, a common language and a mutual love of booze and bacon
Thanks for your "typical expat" judgement. I don't know many people who do fit that description to be honest - and the people on this bored who actually know me would probably tell you I don't fit your stereotype very well.
In any case the logic of your comparison between expats and immigrants to the UK is flawed. No expat gets a passport or asks for one. No expat even expects to be treated with the same respect as a native. No expat I know ever ripped the veil off a local lady in disgust, spoke on TV about how degenerate local culture whilst living off government handouts.
So expats are simply guests who can be kicked out if they don't follow the law or respect local custom - which is fair enough in my opinion. Every group of people has the right to preserve it's customs and control it's own destiny in it's own land...except it seems indigenous Europeans and the immigrants who integrate into their culture. How dare they make comments or pass laws on what is acceptable dress and behaviour in their own country
Apparently we have to tolerate the intolerant now.
N.
What do the Victorians have to do with social norms in modern society? They covered up even more than we do...if anything a burka would be less offensive to them than to us. Also, even to Victorians we have some common ground, a common language and a mutual love of booze and bacon
Thanks for your "typical expat" judgement. I don't know many people who do fit that description to be honest - and the people on this bored who actually know me would probably tell you I don't fit your stereotype very well.
In any case the logic of your comparison between expats and immigrants to the UK is flawed. No expat gets a passport or asks for one. No expat even expects to be treated with the same respect as a native. No expat I know ever ripped the veil off a local lady in disgust, spoke on TV about how degenerate local culture whilst living off government handouts.
So expats are simply guests who can be kicked out if they don't follow the law or respect local custom - which is fair enough in my opinion. Every group of people has the right to preserve it's customs and control it's own destiny in it's own land...except it seems indigenous Europeans and the immigrants who integrate into their culture. How dare they make comments or pass laws on what is acceptable dress and behaviour in their own country
Apparently we have to tolerate the intolerant now.
N.
There are about 100 threads a week on here about typical expats, and characters of Dubai I assume you are being ironic in your comments.
But when it comes down to it,and the black and white positions adopted by both sides of the debate will always ensure these kind of arguements persist and yes we do have tolerate the intolerant, just as we have to tolerate the tolerant.
Anyhow such is life and I prefer a sort of rational debate, rather than The Sun style anecdotal rant, but hey sometimes you just dont get what you want.
Apr 19th 2011, 12:00 pm
#94
Hit 16's
Joined: Mar 2010
Location: Of all the gin joints, in all the towns, in all the world, she walks into mine
Posts: 13,112
Re: Burka Ban
[QUOTE=weasel central;9313782]... passing a law enshrines it in stone unfortunately and prevents any change be it (in peoples' opinions) for good or for bad. It fixes the positions of both sides...QUOTE]
Not at all. Most laws are passed because of the situation at the time, and the majority which have been passed in, say, the last 100 years have been to bring back into balance the situation caused by previous laws. Both the legilsature and the courts create the law, with a further function of the courts being to adapt Acts of Parliament to the (then) current societal and commercial situation.
The law is changing constantly.
Not at all. Most laws are passed because of the situation at the time, and the majority which have been passed in, say, the last 100 years have been to bring back into balance the situation caused by previous laws. Both the legilsature and the courts create the law, with a further function of the courts being to adapt Acts of Parliament to the (then) current societal and commercial situation.
The law is changing constantly.
Apr 19th 2011, 12:13 pm
#95
Account Closed
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 754
Re: Burka Ban
The law is changing constantly.
Anyhow you know what I mean. Politicians being how they are would never repeal a law which affects 5% of the population in my cynical view.
Apr 19th 2011, 12:42 pm
#96
Forum Regular
Joined: Feb 2011
Location: Dubai ex Edinburgh
Posts: 279
Re: Burka Ban
I had to look up who the Trafalgar Club were - sounded like a Napoleonic era re-enactment society!
I would see Britain stop tolerating the intolerant. More work at integrating immigrants (or only giving them work visas) might help matters a little. Less political correctness and name calling every time someone has an opinion that doesn't follow the "narrative" would be nice too. For example, you don't know me and haven't likely read many posts by me but were happy to suggest I am a member of the BNP fundraising arm despite the fact that I don't meet the BNP's membership requirements of a "pure" western European (I think they have been forced to change that now though as it is illegal hehe).
Sadly the far left does have a terrible track record (and I don't know why you included moderate Britons in my charge - I certainly didn't) with violence. Forcing their vision of equality upon the world has created North Korea, Pol Pot, Stalin and Mao - who killed far more than Hitler could have ever dreamed of...but hey, the motivation was a nice one so that makes it alright?
As for offending people - we're all grown up and can grow thicker skin and come back with counter-arguments and claims can't we?
N.
I would see Britain stop tolerating the intolerant. More work at integrating immigrants (or only giving them work visas) might help matters a little. Less political correctness and name calling every time someone has an opinion that doesn't follow the "narrative" would be nice too. For example, you don't know me and haven't likely read many posts by me but were happy to suggest I am a member of the BNP fundraising arm despite the fact that I don't meet the BNP's membership requirements of a "pure" western European (I think they have been forced to change that now though as it is illegal hehe).
Sadly the far left does have a terrible track record (and I don't know why you included moderate Britons in my charge - I certainly didn't) with violence. Forcing their vision of equality upon the world has created North Korea, Pol Pot, Stalin and Mao - who killed far more than Hitler could have ever dreamed of...but hey, the motivation was a nice one so that makes it alright?
As for offending people - we're all grown up and can grow thicker skin and come back with counter-arguments and claims can't we?
N.
I don’t know you and apologies for calling names however you have come across as someone who agree with their ideology. I have met many in the past both full and non-members.
You obviously know your history so I am not going to argue about Rights & Leftists.
Before we even discuss tolerating the intolerant bit, since you know all about history/facts, a few questions:
1) When was the last time you saw a ‘pure’ western European in Britain making an effort to integrate with the Ethnic minorities? went up to their new neighbour to introduce themselves and offer support to foster community feeling?
2) When did we first experience Islamic extremism in Britain? (Now don’t open your history books, only talking about modern era)
3) Muslim women in Britain use to wear Burka’s in Britain before why is it an issue now?
4) How many Muslims were burning poppy’s or blowing themselves up in Britain before Iraq War?
5) How many British Muslims, mainly from indian sub-continent heritage, Scotland Yard arrested after 9/11 knowing that saudi’s were behind the atrocity?
I wish world was a less complicated place.
Last edited by sherri; Apr 19th 2011 at 12:58 pm.
Apr 19th 2011, 12:53 pm
#97
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,127
Re: Burka Ban
I am not for banning of the Burqa. I don't agree with them, but I have even had western women telling me they think it's not oppressive. But surely, there's a tiem and place for all sorts of clothing. A bit silly to go go-karting in one.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...n-go-kart.html
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...n-go-kart.html
Apr 19th 2011, 1:00 pm
#98
Forum Regular
Joined: Feb 2011
Location: Dubai ex Edinburgh
Posts: 279
Re: Burka Ban
I am not for banning of the Burqa. I don't agree with them, but I have even had western women telling me they think it's not oppressive. But surely, there's a tiem and place for all sorts of clothing. A bit silly to go go-karting in one.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...n-go-kart.html
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...n-go-kart.html
or at Mall of emirates Skiing
Apr 19th 2011, 2:01 pm
#101
Hit 16's
Joined: Mar 2010
Location: Of all the gin joints, in all the towns, in all the world, she walks into mine
Posts: 13,112
Re: Burka Ban
I am not for banning of the Burqa. I don't agree with them, but I have even had western women telling me they think it's not oppressive. But surely, there's a tiem and place for all sorts of clothing. A bit silly to go go-karting in one.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...n-go-kart.html
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...n-go-kart.html
Apr 19th 2011, 2:05 pm
#102
Concierge
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 29,625
Re: Burka Ban
Apr 19th 2011, 2:12 pm
#103
Hit 16's
Joined: Mar 2010
Location: Of all the gin joints, in all the towns, in all the world, she walks into mine
Posts: 13,112
Re: Burka Ban
I've always found women wearing wet, tight-fitting garments to be, err, alluring. (Was going to post an example photo, but even with the safe filter on I think I may have given my IT monitors a shock when I searched on Google.)
