Burka Ban

Old Apr 12th 2011, 4:51 pm
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Default Burka Ban

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/ar...d-Britain.html

I know some of you won't open it as it is the DM but it is actually very interesting and written by a local Imam. He agrees that the burqa should be banned in the UK as well as France.
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Old Apr 12th 2011, 5:28 pm
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Default Re: Burka Ban

http://www.thespoof.com/news/spoof.c...dline=s3i94288

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Old Apr 12th 2011, 5:32 pm
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Default Re: Burka Ban

Bonus points for "foreign face-masking fad" though.

"I wouldn't want to be part of a religion myself where we said to women and girls, 'You have to wear a veil.' But I also would not want to be in the kind of society where people were told how to dress when they walked down the streets." - Ed Balls (saying something right for once).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...urqa-niqab-ban
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Old Apr 12th 2011, 6:06 pm
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Default Re: Burka Ban

I don't think it needs to be "discouraged" and its use "disparaged" like the DM says though... after all, some people really feel strongly about it and no amount of brainwashing will stop that... it's also giving far more importance to an item of clothing than really necessary - I mean, we're not talking child weddings or FMG here, are we?

BUT I do believe it has no place in our societies and by putting it in law, it makes the message clear - our country, our rules, no discussion. Very much like here really - and where's the problem here with the dress code? Strictly speaking, "it's my human right" (bla bla bla) to dress how I want, and that could include a boob tube and mini skirt, but I know full well where that'd land me here, so I make my choices accordingly.

Lastly, the chap hosting the Cultural Breakfast I went to said a very interesting thing: his wife wears a full veil here, but no when she travels to the US or UK because to do so would draw attention to herself and would therefore defeat its purpose.
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Old Apr 12th 2011, 6:20 pm
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Default Re: Burka Ban

Any non caveman patriarchal society would ban it.
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Old Apr 13th 2011, 7:43 am
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Old Apr 13th 2011, 7:48 am
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Default Re: Burka Ban

Originally Posted by typical View Post
Bonus points for "foreign face-masking fad" though.

"I wouldn't want to be part of a religion myself where we said to women and girls, 'You have to wear a veil.' But I also would not want to be in the kind of society where people were told how to dress when they walked down the streets." - Ed Balls (saying something right for once).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...urqa-niqab-ban
In France, the feminist campaigning group Ni Putes Ni Soumises has argued that some niqab wearers will welcome tomorrow's ban because they wear the facial veil unwillingly, at the instigation of their husbands.

I particularly like this comment, Women in Saudi would be elated if this came into force for them.
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Old Apr 13th 2011, 8:19 am
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Default Re: Burka Ban

Originally Posted by Blue Cat View Post
In France, the feminist campaigning group Ni Putes Ni Soumises has argued that some niqab wearers will welcome tomorrow's ban because they wear the facial veil unwillingly, at the instigation of their husbands.

I particularly like this comment, Women in Saudi would be elated if this came into force for them.
nice campaign name - "Neither whores nor Door Mats" (it's actually the personalisation of "submissive", but I can't think of the English)
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Old Apr 13th 2011, 8:28 am
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Default Re: Burka Ban

Originally Posted by Blue Cat View Post
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/ar...d-Britain.html

I know some of you won't open it as it is the DM but it is actually very interesting and written by a local Imam. He agrees that the burqa should be banned in the UK as well as France.
There are a lot of big words in there for DM readers, and a new acronym for me: LMR (lampooning, mocking and ridiculing). But its typical bloody DM style--racism masquerading as learned opinion. They must have been delighted to get this from a muslim, a Dr., a foreigner (well, his name is foreign so he must be) and a imam--bonus points all round.
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Old Apr 13th 2011, 8:36 am
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Default Re: Burka Ban

Originally Posted by Bahtatboy View Post
There are a lot of big words in there for DM readers, and a new acronym for me: LMR (lampooning, mocking and ridiculing). But its typical bloody DM style--racism masquerading as learned opinion. They must have been delighted to get this from a muslim, a Dr., a foreigner (well, his name is foreign so he must be) and a imam--bonus points all round.
I actually thought it was rather un DM and factual
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Old Apr 13th 2011, 8:41 am
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Default Re: Burka Ban

There's a very real issue of Islamic immigration into Europe and a very real question which is how many and how much should we ask them to assimilate into the wider national culture and community....neither has been approached sensibly by any mainstream politicians for decades.

There was never any vote by the natives to accept so many immigrants of any kind, nor was there any system of integration in place which is why for some communities we see major divisions with successive generations actually becoming less "local" than their parents and grandparents.

Banning full face coverings has a security element for sure, but it also tells Muslims clearly that they are in Europe and must adapt to European custom. It's one thing to quote laws about freedom of expression and dress but the reality is we have a majority culture and that culture like any other has defined normal behaviour and modes of dress. Virtually all human cultures look with suspicion people who cover their faces.

Burkhas are not even mentioned in the Koran - they are a cultural symbol of women's second class status and have nothing to do with modesty - modesty is defined by culture and in France you can show a lot of flesh more flesh than in the middle east before you're looked upon as immodest.

N.
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Old Apr 13th 2011, 9:24 am
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Default Re: Burka Ban

Strangely I find myself against the French ruling here, I believe that we ought to have freedom to wear whatever you want.
Obviously if you go to a bank or airport or similar you will have to remove it for security or identification reasons.
Its part of an open society to accept the differences.
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Old Apr 13th 2011, 9:55 am
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Default Re: Burka Ban

Originally Posted by weasel central View Post
Strangely I find myself against the French ruling here, I believe that we ought to have freedom to wear whatever you want.
Obviously if you go to a bank or airport or similar you will have to remove it for security or identification reasons.
Its part of an open society to accept the differences.
yup, but there has to be a balance, mainly in the form of "you can have your rights, as long as they don't impinge on others'"... and cultural norms are the expression of the majority population's idea of "rights".

I really, really hate the way "Human Rights" are banded around, completely separated from the complementary notion of "Human Responsibility" - you can't have one without the other. Yes, it's your bloomin' Human Right to dress as you please, but it's also your responsibility to respect the society that you're part of. If you don't want to be part of that society, then be prepared to be outlawed, banned, moved or ostracised... but don't go on to complain about it.
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Old Apr 13th 2011, 10:13 am
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Default Re: Burka Ban

The religious element of this issue needs to be removed. It can then be dealt with purely on a cultural level, and resolved on the basis that each country has the right (and obligation) to ensure that its culture is preserved. People walking round with their faces covered isn't part of our culture.

God alone knows how we can take the religious element out of it.
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Old Apr 13th 2011, 10:40 am
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Default Re: Burka Ban

Originally Posted by Hello.Kitty View Post
yup, but there has to be a balance, mainly in the form of "you can have your rights, as long as they don't impinge on others'"... and cultural norms are the expression of the majority population's idea of "rights".

I really, really hate the way "Human Rights" are banded around, completely separated from the complementary notion of "Human Responsibility" - you can't have one without the other. Yes, it's your bloomin' Human Right to dress as you please, but it's also your responsibility to respect the society that you're part of. If you don't want to be part of that society, then be prepared to be outlawed, banned, moved or ostracised... but don't go on to complain about it.
Well I don't see how covering your face, be it Hijab, baseball cap and shades, hoodie, motorcycle helmet, halloween mask, ski balaclava or whatever makes any difference (except in the security situations I mentioned for identification).

The society you speak of is your perception and your side of it, it will always be subjective. There is no real homogenous society in any country so the point to follow society that you are part of, is moot.

Anyhow my point isnt that I am supporting Muslim culture but I am supporting the right to do what you want within the laws of the country. Now that this is the law, they will have to follow it but I don't believe the law should have been passed in the first place.
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