captainflack

Well, finally the press seem to be catching up with me....

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ers-article-50

There you go. The EU realizes it cannot force the UK to trigger article 50 and start the process to leave. But the UK cannot force the EU to have information talks for a deal first, and even if it could, it cannot force the EU to offer any concessions.

Even with a eurosceptic government of Johnson or Gove, they won't actually leave unless they get a good deal from the EU. Which they won't. Just like Greece, the referendum is worthless as a negotiating tool to extract more from the EU. They can see through it.

So whoever is in number 10 needs to do something. Because you cannot have the UK dangling over the trapdoor indefinitely.

The most obvious deal, that is quick to conclude, is that the UK officially leaves the EU, and then has a bilateral deal that pretty much includes all the obligations it had before, as well as the benefits, except perhaps a seat at the EU table (because it is not a member), and possibly a cut in UK contributions, but no EU funding will go back to the UK (so nobody can use the 350m lie again, effectively Britain will just pay the net amount and not get anything back). It will be worse than what we have now. But with the economy collapsing, it offers the UK PM a way out.

Remember, the 'outers' made a fatal mistake. The referendum question was only ever about leaving the EU. Britain would have left, it would be outside just like Switzerland and Norway (yet bound by freedom of movement, etc.). The referendum result would have been respected, and enacted.

The key thing is that such a deal can only be arranged after long enough that it will be absolutely obvious to everyone that most of the promises made by the outers were lies and that whether people like it or not, the economic cost is simply not something the vast majority are willing to pay for 'keeping some darkies out'.

captainflack

I see, it was a Vote Leave bus. What about IDS? He was Vote Leave wasn't he?

And as if by magic....

Iain Duncan Smith backtracks on leave side's £350m NHS claim | Politics | The Guardian

So, just Boris and Gove now. Either of them going to commit to 350m more for the NHS every week? Or are they going to say it wasn't their f**king bus either and they don't know how the hell that slogan got on it, and they never noticed it?

Lightandbitter

So amongst their many other threats and lies, when the PM and the chancellor come out on national TV and it was repeated throughout mainstream media that

Leaving the EU would cost UK households £4,300 a year making them “permanently poorer”, chancellor George Osborne said on Monday


Do you think that people voted leave on the basis of 350mil a week to the NHS whilst understanding that their family would be 4300quid a year worse off?

Or are we saying that the bus was believable but the chancellor wasn't?

Irishbeekeeper

But but but....why have so many people in the government resigned today?

paulry

This is all starting to sound like a left wing uprising.

moneypenny20

Well I'm glad someone understood what I meant but sadly I still haven't received an explanation as to how it's going to happen. I did get offered a tummy rub I think. Not sure why.

Bermudashorts

I think maybe it is you that misunderstood something if you think anyone voting Leave thought that Nigel Farage or even Boris or Gove had the authority to earmark money for the NHS. Who on earth would think that?

It was an *example* of what the £8 billion currently handed over to Europe *could* be spent on - and when George Osbourne is announcing there would have to be cuts to NHS spending it was an alternative way of thinking.

Butin any case this was not a general election, something Remainers seem to have an awful lot of trouble grasping. This could be a 30-40 year decision, who knows what policies will be like in the future. We were not choosing policies or spending plans. The referendum was about how we should be governed and who by.

Pulaski

This.

scrubbedexpat141

Do you honestly think that the average working class individual in Barnsley (I saw lots of stuff on Barnsley to with this vote for some reason) knew that. Or appreciated it? Or did '350m quid for the NHS' instantly ratify an already poorly informed decision and merely seal them as leave voters?

Someone in another thread said the vote to leave was to block immigration it was to be more selective.

Same point again. Do people really think the average person was clearly told that or went and found that very, very, very, very specific difference out for themselves? 100% No. The Leave campaign didn't need to lie all the time. The people did it for them and they could simply just stay quiet.

DXBtoDOH

I am always immediately suspect when we start talking about the "average person." Who is the average person? Just wondering.

In any election (or referendum) voters on both sides read what they want to believe in each side's campaigns. There has been a remarkable amount of selective reporting and misquoting by both sides but that's politics as usual. The remainers whinging about Leave lies conveniently ignore their own side were just as culpable.

While I agree there's always going to be an element of dummies and fools supporting any side of any election, it is still my view that at the end of the day the clear majority of voters are reasonable enough to make a valid decision on their own. There are many factors that goes into a person's decision to cast his/her ballot the way they did. I used to be an obnoxious political wonk at university that saw the world strictly in black and white but as I've aged, time and experience (and exposure) have shown me there's a huge grey area that most people live in and make their decisions and that has to be respected.

Regardless of how you view the referendum campaigns or the EU, at the end of the day the majority of voters in the UK were sufficiently unhappy enough with the state of affairs to vote for the unknown. It's really is astonishing. Given the sheer opposition put into fore by the forces of the remain side and the rather decent overall economic conditions, it's stunning, but perhaps the remain side should be asking why those voters were unhappy to begin with instead of sneering about lies and lack of education?

Ask yourself: if the Leave campaign was based on lies, then why were voters willing to listen to those lies?

Let's be thankful this isn't the 1640s and we aren't going around putting people's heads on spikes, shall we

scrubbedexpat141

I don't disagree with any of that.

People are willing to listen to the anti-establishment stuff concerning Europe etc in the same way PLENTY of Americans appear to be happy to listen to the 'Make America Great Again' from Trump.

Do we think Trump is a good thing? Unlikely.
Do I personally see huge swathes in differences between some of what Trump says and that of the Leave campaign? Nope, unfortunately not. Tone seems similar. Our country, bugger off foreigners, we're the best and stuff everyone else.

That - before I get shot to pieces - is how it comes across in my opinion.

Like I said on another thread. It's all done now. It reeks of class warfare and that kind of thing which will only continue to drive division. The important thing now is to make sure we end up with someone in No.10 who is competent and capable and not Boris and can get the best possible platform for the country to rebuild on. Hopefully the whole country will calm down a touch and we'll work hard, as we would naturally always resort to, and get shit done.

iggle

Another story another thread, but Hilary would be worst.

Millhouse

I wouldn't worry... we're not leaving.

Bermudashorts

How patronising are you? I am a working class person born and brought up in Oldham and understood it perfectly. So yes, I do think that. I don't assume working class people are stupid.

For three days now, Remainers have been maintaining this position that only they are clever enough to understand the issues. Perish the thought that somebody can be intelligent and have a different opinion.

Millhouse

I'm working class. I'm also educated.

My friends are all working class but not educated.

We have different opinions.

The basic issue is that Leave was hijacked by immigration issues. The two issues are not (completely) related.

A vote for Leave was a vote for immigration from the Common Wealth... at least their food is better.