Re: Upcoming Referendum
 

I have very mixed feelings but am being influenced by the fact that immigration from non EU countries, many of which are members of the Commonwealth, has been made much more difficult since joining the EU and having to allow the free movement of people from members of the EU. I don't think that if we leave, immigration from non EU countries will become any easier though. It's just a matter of principle for me.

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I understand your feeling, but the UK has been a member of the EU since 1973. The new difficulties for non-EU immigration stem only from the last Tory government's xenophobic policy enacted in about 2012.

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But wasn't it because they had to reduce immigration which had risen uncontrollably since freedom of movement included the rising number of countries joining the EU?

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Had to?

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Well, FELT they had to!

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FELT they had to, perhaps, but only because many extremely xenophobic lumpenprolitariat Tory voters (and some similar MPs) were deemed to be deserting the Tories for UKIP.

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I too feel the same, in fact am rather bitter about the fact that I will have to eventually pay nearly £6000 for my spouse visa when I am a commonwealth citizen, with property in UK which I have had since 1999, have been submitting tax returns, paying my NI until this year and had permanent residence and have to go through these loops while EU citenzens come in and can also bring all their family members too! That is more open to abuse because one of them can marry for convenience and still come here. My heart tells me to vote to leave and become closer to commonwealth countries with ties to Britain but head says maybe vote stay to keep status quo because these immigrants will still come in anyway. Wonder what war veterens think after fighting for Britain's sovereignty only to hand it back to Germany and France. I fluctuate daily!

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We are on the same page, Feelbritish! But surely, if we regain our sovereignty, won't the government be able to apply the same restrictions to immigrants from the EU as they do to Commomwealth citizens and others? Why should those from the EU not have to meet the same requirements, financial, accommodation, relationship and language, as those from non EU countries?

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I'd far rather have free movement of people as some are talking about with Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

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Because they are white?

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Sorry, that was a bit unfair. Or maybe not. But you see the problem?

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Yes it was quite unfair.

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Would this be reciprocal? I can't see these countries agreeing to that. What about South Africa? Other commonwealth countries?

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I was commenting about a proposal I read about last year sometime; the common language, accounting practices and law, along with similar standards of living were cited as being factors that could prove beneficial to the potential success of such an arrangement. I could see this working, as for others in the Commonwealth - I'd have to give it further thought.

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Accounting practices? Seriously?

As far as law is concerned, most of the countries of the Commonwealth have a common-law system. The United States fulfills the criteria too. Why not the USA?

Where did you see this proposal?

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English speaking countries, with a common-law system include:

Antigua and Barbuda
Bahamas
Barbados
Belize
Cook Islands
Dominica
Grenada
Guyana
Ireland
Jamaica
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
Singapore
Trinidad and Tobago

I know nothing of their 'accounting practices'.

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Off the top of my head, I don't recall. I read quite a lot about a variety of subjects but I'm quite sure you could find numerous pieces on Google. And you're quite right, the USA would fill that criteria but there'd no doubt be a huge cry about having the Americans on board. I'm merely saying it sounded like something that had potential that's all. You are entitled to your own opinion and I mine.

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What about all the soldiers and civilians too, that lost their lives in conflicts across Europe? The EU was originally formed to help assure there would never be that loss of life again. That is what I wonder about.

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Firstly, we haven't lost our sovereignty. Second, if the UK leaves the EU it will still remain a member of the EEA which means freedom of movement between member states will still apply. This referendum is not about the EEA and the UK government neither has nor will have a mandate to leave the EEA.

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+1. I speak as a 65 year old man who has never been called upon to bear arms. I wonder how long ago it was that a Brit of my age could say that?

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Well, broadly speaking about 100 years? Britain had no conscription until 1916, if you discount feudal duties.

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Broadly speaking then a century? How old are you?

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63 in a few days.

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Weren't there men who were just too young to be called up in 1918/1919 but were too old to be called up for the Second World War? Not sure of what date men were called up in WWII and the upper age limit. I know that many served in active duty in both wars, but that would often be because they had senior rank in WWII or volunteered...

Edited to add, probably the above is not right, as National Service which was brought in from September 1939 included men up to age 41. So WWI and WWII caught up everyone in terms of conscription..

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It's a long time since I studied WW2 but, as far as I can remember, men aged 20-21 had to register for a short spell of military training from about April 1939 onwards. Conscription for men aged 18 - 40 (41?) who weren't in reserved occupations was introduced later that year, but it took a couple of years to work through the different age groups, starting with the youngest. The upper age limit was eventually raised to 51 during WW1, but I don't know if it ever reached this during WW2. Some conscripts were also sent to the coal mines (Bevin Boys), and women were called up for various types of war service too.

The original question is a bit tricky.That's why I said about 100 years, generally speaking, if we're referring to combatants. I'm sure there were exceptions.

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Sorry, I'm taking the thread even more off topic, but the history nerd in me is niggled by the suggestion that the last compulsory military service before WW1 was 'feudal'.

There was compulsory conscription to the county militias between 1808 and 1816. And, I should add, the press-gangs for the navy operated another kind of compulsory military service between the seventeenth and nineteenth centuries.

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I plead guilty to having taken the thread down this cul-de-sac, but my point was that there hasn't been a war between major European powers for 61 years and counting and that this at least in part is due to the existence of the EU.

As originally pointed out by rebeccajo.

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I agree with the point you are making.

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I tried sharing this on the EU thread in TIO, but serious responses were not really there.

This is an interesting analysis of why the US wants the UK to remain in the EU.

It also contains one additional question that I have not seen raised here - why is Russia so keen on having the UK leave the EU? Does Mr. Putin have our best interests at heart then? I suspect not. If the UK leaving the EU does put the whole of the EU at risk, who will move into the void and what will the outcome of that be if it is Russia? Or any other country?


Why Washington is worried about Brexit - BBC News

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I believe, in a roundabout way, this goes to my point about internal conflict in Europe and the foundation of the EU.

And as an aside, America would do well to remember those conflicts during this years Presidential race. Demagoguery is not unique to Europe, after all.

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Conservative MEPs welcome Prime Minister’s commitment on TTIP

I suspect the EU with it's wider range of political-spectrum parties will be able to slow down TTIP more effectively than a post-Brexit Tory-majority Westminster.

It's the UK

The size of the British opt-outs

The UK has opt-outs from the Eurozone, the Schengen border-free travel area (and made it's own Common Travel Area giving exactly the same rules as Schengen but only between the UK and Ireland, which is also non-Schengen), and many other aspects of the EU. Including an opt-out of any closer political union.

No other EU country has as many opt-outs.

Commonwealth nationals already have the right to enter the UK as visitors for up to six months without a visa, and that right usually also extends to UK nationals going to other Commonwealth countries.

Immigration is a much tougher sell. I attended a Parliamentary meeting a couple of years ago where the Home Office rep gave figures on the nationalities of the most common overstayers and illegal workers. Commonwealth nationals (Australians, New Zealanders and Indians accounted for 3 of the top 5 nationalities.

Would wherever you're living waive the visa fees for Brits wanting to move there?

I wonder how the natives felt in Australia, New Zealand, India, the US and Canada felt when the British empire came into their countries to claim their lands and a share of their valuables as 'common wealth' between them and the UK?

Immigrants? When the descendants of the UK settlers all leave those countries, then Brits can start to claim the moral high ground on immigration.

I'm confused as to what sovereignty we've handed to France and Germany.

Can you give me examples please (with links).

This one?

The Commonwealth Free Movement Organisation

CANZUK: Why Just "The Big 4"?

In general, the UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand are more than likely to succeed (and prosper) under free movement principles due to their similar socio-economic statuses. The CANZUK area shares the same majority language, the same Head of State (Queen Elizabeth II), the same Westminster style parliamentary system, the same common-law legal system, the same respect for democracy, human rights and the rule of law, and the same westernised culture. As I have said in countless radio and TV interviews, we are virtually the same people with “the only thing dividing us being the cover of our passports”. If the European Union can embrace (and implement) the idea of free movement with over 500 million citizens living in over 30 different member states, all of whom speaking different languages, encompassing different legal systems and embracing different cultures, there is no reason why the CANZUK area could not also embrace freedom of movement for its citizens considering our shared history and socio-economic similarities.

So, like the EU would be without the poorer East European countries. It must be a class thing.

See my reply above this.

As is mentioned in the article, the UK is the USA's bridge into the EU, especially now that the US and UK have withdrawn pretty much all military forces from Europe because of the end of the Cold War. The US still has a number of bases in the UK and needs that to continue, hence the 'special relationship'.

Regarding the EU, the US needs the UK to be it's eyes, ears and voice on American interests in the EU. A Brexit would mean that the US loses it's proxy influence in the EU.

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[QUOTE=DaveLovesDee;11945354

Commonwealth nationals already have the right to enter the UK as visitors for up to six months without a visa, and that right usually also extends to UK nationals going to other Commonwealth countries.

I wonder how the natives felt in Australia, New Zealand, India, the US and Canada felt when the British empire came into their countries to claim their lands and a share of their valuables as 'common wealth' between them and the UK?
.[/QUOTE]



Just spotted the title when looking at 'today's posts' and looked at the posts for interest.

Just to correct --I don't know about other Commonwealth countries but Visitors to UK from India certainly need a visa and also a sponsorship letter.
British need visa for India also.

'Common wealth' happened after independence. There was no "sharing" of wealth during Empire rule, just 'taking'!

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South African nationals have also required visas to visit the UK for several years now, and the SA government largely brought this on themselves, but that's another discussion. They raise the prospect of imposing reciprocal restrictions on British nationals visiting SA from time to time.

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Very few Commonwealth citizens can come to the UK without a visitor visa. Most are 'visa nationals'.

Out of the other 52 Commonwealth nations 29 countries' citizens can visit the UK visa-free, the bulk of which are small island nations.

The only visa-free Commonwealth countries with a population above three million are, in descending order, Canada, Malaysia, Australia, Papua New Guinea, Singapore and New Zealand. All are rich, stable countries (with the notable exception of PNG, probably because so few can afford to travel).

The big ones, all with a population of 40 million and up, India, Pakistan, Nigeria, Bangladesh, South Africa, Tanzania and Kenya, are all visa national countries.

Re: Upcoming Referendum
 

[QUOTE=DaveLovesDee;11945354

Regarding the EU, the US needs the UK to be it's eyes, ears and voice on American interests in the EU. A Brexit would mean that the US loses it's proxy influence in the EU.[/QUOTE]

Hmmmm. That is no doubt part of it. But many US service men and women paid the ultimate sacrifice in conflicts that originated in Europe.

I remember when I first saw the chapel in the back of St. Paul's that is dedicated to those US service people that lost their lives aiding in the defense of Britain in WWII. I doubt many Americans even know it is there. But the UK wanted to honor those sacrifices. It is such a lovely place to visit.

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Thanks for that. Most appreciated.

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Yea, well they're all darkies innit?

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And poor.

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And therein lies the rub.

Many Brexiters were happy enough until the Eastern European countries were allowed to join.

Some of the proposals on free movement within the Commonwealth only include the richest members.

I suspect it's a case of keeping the rich in power and screwing the poorer countries. Again. :p

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It's a matter of market forces. Citizens of poor and unstable countries are more likely to want to come to and remain in a rich and stable country because it is more safer and more prosperous than their homeland.

Likewise a freedom of movement scheme only works when there is movement in both directions which only happens when all the countries involved are comparatively wealthy. No-one cared about EU/EEA freedom of movement when it was just Western Europe as relatively similar numbers of people moved between the countries involved. It was only when Poland and the other A8 countries joined in 2004 that you had a disproportionally large number of people moving from East to West. This was compounded by the fact that only the UK, Ireland and Sweden didn't put transitional measures in place meaning that, rather than also going to Germany and France, the vast majority moved to the UK. There are currently only 4500 Britons living in Poland but 800,000 Poles living in the UK.

Similarly a 'Commonwealth' scheme would work if it was the Five Eyes countries minus the USA but not if you added in the Indian subcontinent and Nigeria.