Re: Upcoming Referendum
 

This alone makes me want to stay in, and keep the EU together.

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That may be what the Brexiteers would like but since there would be no mandate to leave the EEA as well and as all the major parties are still pro-Europe we would remain within the EEA and more than likely rejoin EFTA so trade with the EU would remain largely unaffected but so would freedom of movement. In essence nothing of any great importance would change except in regard to how the Common Agricultural Policy and Common Fisheries Policy affects British farmers and fishermen.

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+1

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I must admit, the fact that UKIP are so strongly for Brexit makes me worry, I'm loathe to get into bed with them in any way, shape or form.

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It isn't just Farage. Putin, ISIS and Rupert Murdoch also support Brexit.


And Katie Hopkins.

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Putin is a classic "divide and conquer" leader so it's little surprise he supports Brexit.

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What concerns me is that joining Europe was originally for trade, but the Common Market has morphed into an ever expanding political entity. How far do they intend it to spread?
Already Turkey with its 80 million people with questionable treatment of its inhabitants is knocking on the door, and apparently in another direction there are others in the pipeline.

Unfortunately (or whichever way you want to put it), we currently have 28 countries in the EU with different cultures and languages. Some countries have no idea how to manage their finances, and believe that the rest should support them when they inevitably get into difficulties. However it means that more and more money has to be thrown into what appears to be a bottomless pit, and we are expected to contribute whatever we are told. Arguing the point achieves nothing once Brussels has decided.

I like the idea of a united Europe, but currently with millions of people on the move to make Europe their home, we are now seeing individual European countries angry with the flood. Angela Merkel made her invitation with good intent, but she didn't think it through, even her own people are now crying for her blood!

I cannot envisage our extraordinary mix of people in the EU ever working satisfactorily, and if as is mooted we are to be part of a European military, who will be the leaders? France would not want Brits having importance, and if Germany says jump, how high will our PM believe he has to spring?

I am sure on voting day I will still not know which way to go!!

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This is an interesting spin on the EU . . .

The European Union always was a CIA project, as Brexiteers discover

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Turkey has been trying to gain admittance for a couple of decades. It would have to make huge social and political changes to qualify. But if it met the criteria, I believe it would be beneficial to Europe for it to be a member. As for past expansion, I think the balance is in favour despite at least a couple of countries where there have clearly been large issues. Poland, for example, stands out as a success and is a hugely different place from the ex-communist "basketcase" it once was. Otoh, Romania is still mired in corruption and I strongly believe Greece - admitted earlier than the ex-communist entrants - should never have been allowed to join. It never did fulfill the criteria (ditto with its entrance into the Euro with disastrous consequences).

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That's another +1 from me :thumbdown:

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Yup, life goes on. The US was rather small to begin with.


Turkey has knocked for a long time. One day, not soon, they may be welcome.

Firsr bold: ie. the Uk? Second bold, you do know that he Uk contribution to the EU finances is much less than 1% of the UK GDP?

But it already does.

Where TF does that come from?

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Really, does any more need to be said? :lol:

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With persuasive powers like that Editha, you should be in politics :lol: If ever there was a waste of space, it's her.

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If only Cameron and his cronies weren't so desperate to stay in. I have an inherent mistrust of everything that comes out of the mouths of pigs with their snouts in the trough.

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So true. It's a dilemma for sure. Hence the reason I have absolutely no bloody idea how I would vote - so good thing I can't, I suppose.

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If Cameron was desperate to stay in, he would not have called a referendum in the first place. There was no necessity to do so. The referendum is about a split in the Conservative Party and Cameron's wish to cling on as leader. It was irresponsible to hold a referendum, but Cameron does not put the good of the country above his own party, or his own ambitions.

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Given that he's already publicly said that he will step down before 2020 that doesn't seem a likely motivation. More likely it was about winning the 2015 General Election by making it a manifesto pledge to stop the haemorrhaging of Tory voters to UKIP. And it worked.

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Agreed. But still irresponsible.

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Depends on whether you want this issue to continue to poison British politics for another generation. To my mind the real danger is that a 'Leave' vote will lead to another Scottish independence referendum and the breakup of the UK. For no other reason than that I'll be voting 'Remain'.

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If UK exits EU what will happen to all those receiving UK OAP currently index-linked in EU. Will they be denied index-linking like the rest of pensioners in non-EU countries?

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Don't kid yourself that the referendum will 'clear the air', any more than the Scottish referendum did.

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Good point. I'm not certain, but presumably the state pension would be frozen on Brexit. Unfreezing it would require a fresh reciprocal agreement. I wouldn't be hopeful that one would be made any time soon.

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Oh, I'm not. That the SNP won all but three Westminster seats in the General Election is proof of that. My concern is that they shouldn't be given the political excuse to call for another referendum. The crash in oil prices certainly helps but a 'Remain' vote would hopefully close the door on that for at least another generation.

A 'Leave' vote won't mean instant Brexit. They'll be at least two years of negotiations to untangle ourselves. The reality is that we will most likely rejoin EFTA, remain part of the EEA and be in much the same position as now when all is said and done.

I'm not expecting a 'Leave' win in any case.

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What I meant was that, just as the SNP don't accept the Scottish referendum vote as the last word on the matter, neither will the Brexiters accept the result of the EU referendum. At the very least, the issue will continue to fester within the Conservative Party.

On the point about pensions, what determines the status quo? Do Brits in Europe get their pension increases thanks to the EU, EFTA or the EEA? Because if it is the EU, surely they will lose it, unless there is a fresh reciprocal agreement? I'm not even sure whether the agreement would have to be with the EU, or each country individually.

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It's not only pensioners in EU countries who get annual RP rises.

They get them in the USA for example.

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More than likely but that's not much of a concern to me :)

On the pensions question I understand that it depends on whether there is a bilateral deal between the UK and the country in question so it shouldn't be affected by any potential Brexit. There are deals with the US and Jamaica for instance but none with Australia, New Zealand or Canada.

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...-state-pension

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I've found the answer, which is on the gov.uk site: the pension increases in Europe result from membership of the EEA, so if the UK leaves the EU, but remains in the EEA, then pensions will not be affected.

https://www.gov.uk/state-pension-if-...-state-pension

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*English Tory

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Yes, outside the EEA, it depends on a reciprocal agreement with the country concerned.

I'm not certain about whether if leaving the EU we will automatically remain members of the EEA. But, if we do then ex-pat pensioners in the EEA will get their annual increase. If not, then it will depend on whether we rejoin the EEA, or make a reciprocal agreement, which presumably will have to be with each country individually. That could take some time (like several years).

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I can imagine that pensioners in EU, unable to get their pension increases and having the spending value of their pension diminished if sterling drops, will return to UK and register again with the NHS and demand the inflation increases in pensions.
I hope the systems can cope.

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Under TTIP, if a government enacts health or safety regulations that result in a foreign product previous saleable becoming prohibited then the affected seller can seek and obtain money damages from the lawmaking country.

In other words our power to make health and safety laws are no longer ours but become the property of privately owned multinational corporations.

MSF opposes TTIP for that reason. Which may be why their hospitals are being destroyed in a series of false flag attacks.

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The terms of the TTIP are still being negotiated, and according to the NHS itself:

"The latest text of the EU's negotiating proposal to the US, made public on 31 July, contains strong safeguards which enable Member States to retain full control over how they provide health services."

The suggestion that some kind of international capitalist conspiracy is resulting in MSF hospitals in Syria being bombed because of opposition to TTIP is utterly ridiculous.

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That is me!

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I think there are many of us torn between the two, we are damned if we leave, and we are damned if we don't!

Perhaps we could compare it with running towards a chasm being chased by a monster. Should we try and reason with the monster and give it whatever it wants, whenever it wants, or jump free to the other side but not knowing if we can make it?

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You mean like the UK being forced to join the Euro? Oh wait...

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As already mentioned I couldn't care less about Tory backbenchers squabbling amongst themselves. Locking ourselves into another Scottish independence referendum and breaking up the Union on the other hand is something I'd really rather avoid.

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I would not like to see Scotland leave the UK, but I feel that Nicola Sturgeon will keep pressing until she gets the result she wants.

I don't understand the SNP wanting to break away, am I correct that they want to stay with the EU which is much more demanding than Westminster? I doubt if the small population of Scotland would have a big enough voice in the EU to achieve anything, I would envisage another Nicola Sturgeon referendum to leave.

June will be an interesting month.

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Wrestling control of Scotland from London only to hand it to Brussels is not something I really understand either unless the SNP is planning to use EU funds to plug the financial hole breaking away from the UK would leave but since Sturgeon has already committed to another referendum if the UK opts for Brexit then I'm not willing to give her the excuse.

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More reasons for "out" for me, very few reasons to be in. I think Scotland will go at some stage anyway - the Rottweiler Sturgeon won't rest until they have independence regardless.

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Probably because the EU isn't actually more demanding (whatever that means), and the Scots can see that spending ten years renegotiating your trade agreements with the rest of the world while your economy goes down the plughole, isn't such a brilliant idea.