The search was done; I'm interested in more personal European
experiences here on this 'apéritif thread. Perhaps some 'absinthe
fiend' will come forward!...<g>

Is this stuff 'that shite' or 'the shit'? I thought the stuff commonly
sold was an 'ersatz' recipe?

Tim K

"Frank F. Matthews" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:aF%[email protected]...
    > You might try a serious search. A cursory one got the following
    > "Absinthe is still available in Spain, Portugal, and the Czech
Republic,
    > where it is quite trendy among patrons of bars and coffeehouses. It is
    > also legal in Britain and reportedly is available in Andorra and
Denmark."
    > FFM
    > Tim Kroesen wrote:
    > > Coooooooo.... Paregoric!!! My Grandmother loved it too...<g>
    > >
    > > But what of that ultimate forbidden (in the US) European drink for
    > > Adults... Absinthe??? Is the real (Wormwood) stuff available? Did
it
    > > ever actually contain narcotics? Is it safe??? Will I spout dark
    > > poetry after imbibing???
    > >
    > > Tim K
    > >
    > > "Olivers" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > >
    > >>Those of us raised when Paregoric was still the infant bowel and
    > >>temperament calmative of choice are partial to a bit/hit of anise in
    > >
    > > the
    > >
    > >>evening.
    > >>
    > >>TMO
    > >
    > >

pantagruel <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Have you tried a Negoni?

I thought it was called a Negroni- probably my mistake?

    > equal parts of Campari, gin, and sweet vermouth,
    > shaken with ice and strained or on the rocks.

Yes, I like it. Again, I'm confused- I thought it also had angostura
(sp?) bitters in it. I think that's what I used, anyway- or maybe that
was another cocktail. I'm not a fan of campari and soda, but I did like
the Neg(r?)oni.

    > By the way I understand that British sailors used to be called "limeys"
    > (maybe they still are) because they would take fresh limes on sailing
    > expeditions with them to stave off scurvy. Then why is it that anywhere in
    > England I went, which
    > was all over, I can't get a G&T with a fresh lime?

Yes, lemon isn't the same in it. To be fair though, I think that a lot
of pubs and bars will give you a slice of lime in a G&T now. Certainly
more than you used to get.

David

--
David Horne- www.davidhorne.net
davidhorne (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk

Earl Evleth <[email protected]> wrote:

    > On 23/03/04 16:01, in article
    > 1gb3upg.jaf2nrlswhhqN%this_address_is_for_spam@yah oo.co.uk, "David Horne"
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > Nor will a G&T (probably why it's quite a popular before-dinner drink in
    > > some areas)- that's my preference.
    >
    >
    > Perhaps "a gin and tonic" but they are easy to drink, several at least.

I think there are two kinds of G&T's. There's the one you have on a lazy
summer afternoon, which is usually in a long glass, with several cubes
of ice, lime, and plenty of tonic- I'd say at least 3 parts tonic to one
part gin. That's an easy going drink- and easy to have a few.

Then, as I've discovered, mostly from having it served before dinner at
other friends' houses, it's effective if served in a smallish rocks
glass with a few cubes of ice, lime, and equal parts gin and tonic. With
that mix, I find I only want/need the one, then I'm ready for the meal.

    > We have been talking about ouzo too, which also is a sneaky drink.
    > You think you are drinking nothing much and then "bam" you are
    > staggering around.

Yes. I do like ouzo (and it's fun the way it changes appearance when you
add the ice) but I once made the mistake of getting on to it _after_
I've already had some other drinks. Bad mistake for me, if I recall
correctly- though I admit I don't recall much of the experience.

David

--
David Horne- www.davidhorne.net
davidhorne (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk

Dans l'article <[email protected]>, Padraig
Breathnach <[email protected]> a écrit :


    > Earlier this evening I was checking fares and dates for a trip shortly
    > after Easter. Discussions like this are good, as they get me thinking
    > about what I like, and I have to draw up a list. Last year we weren't
    > very well organised, bought randomly or capriciously, and got the mix
    > wrong: no Vacqueras, no Morgon, no Graves (red or white), not enough
    > Chinon -- I don't know how we survived the winter.

No Morgon????? I feel for you. It must have been a very long winter.

Donna Evleth

Dans l'article <%6%[email protected] k.net>,
"pantagruel" <[email protected]> a écrit :


    > Also can someone enlighten me on C. de Mur. I "googled" it but with no
    > satisfaction and my food dictionary does not have it. What is it and does it
    > go by an English name. Thanks.

If this is Crème de Mur, it is the same idea as Crème de Cassis, but is
blackberry liqueur. "Mur" is blackberry.

Donna Evleth
    >

On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 12:54:25 +0100, Earl Evleth <[email protected]>
wrote:

    >One is surprised at the tolerance of French waiter`s ears!

One would definitely be surprised.
    >One classic mispronunciation of English speakers is Gare (train station)
    >and Guerre (war).

English people are very familiar with the tale of Robin Hood and
Richard the Lionheart (Coeur de Lion). Sounds a bit like Guerre de
Lyon. Maybe Gare de Lyon gets lumped in there too.

Mind you, I have heard native french speakers say "sink" for cinq and
other variations of accent so the English are not unique.

    >I posted this a few years ago.
    >Earl
    >****
    >THE WAR IN LYON
    >One of the difficulties of high school French is that it is quickly
    >forgotten and probably never really learned. Two years of the
    >stuff at the age of 16-17 evaporates by the time one is 40 or 50.
    >The most difficult part of the language is that even familiar words are not
    >pronounced the same. The Europeans` pronunciation of the alphabet from Ah
    >to Zed is already different than the American (A as in hey, to Z as in Zee).
    >About 30% of French vocabulary uses the same words as in English, but the
    >pronunciations are different . Nation. In American English it is pronounced
    >as "nay-shun" and in French as 'nah-ce-own". More or less!

The "-ion " ending in french is a challenge for native english
speakers. In trying to get away from the 'shun' sound we attempt to
pronounce it with two syllables eg "ee-own" whereas it is only one
syllable. So nation would be more like 'nah-seeown' (I can't
really think of how to write it phonetically).

English speakers have the same challenge with words like 'votre" . We
enunciate two syllables and pronounce like 'vot-re' whereas it is
closer to 'vot' .

We also have a challenge with the nasal 'en', 'in' and 'un' sounds.
(Sometimes we grunt the word for 'one' because we don't know whether
the noun is masculin or feminine. The grunt is offered as a sort of
compromise hoping the listener will hear the correct one )

However, I believe we mostly grunt because we can't hear the
subtleties between 'un' , 'en' and 'in' sounds in the first place.
Also our facial muscles are not trained to make the correct shapes.
It's amazing the difference in vowel sound you make when you raise
your cheek muscles. Try practising with your hands on your face and
you will 'feel' the sound. 'Un' for one requires this raising of
the cheek muscles. Well it does for me"

For those with school or 'holiday' french only, and no opportunity to
regularly hear native speakers, it is a big challenge to acquire and
retain any semblance of a proper accent. I guess we should respect
people who at least make an effort. Many don't.

Linked with this - does anyone in UK follow french TV? Years ago
I thought of getting satellite for this. However I think then you
needed to be pointed to a different satellite so needed a motorised
system, which I couldn't afford. Mind you, given that many
europeans watch English speaking programmes, French TV might not be
all that wonderful anyway.

At least to be able to watch the news on TV5 or something like that
would be useful. News readers have clear accents and there should be
similarities occasionally with International news.

I don't currently have satellite and we have no cable but I imagine,
since I don't often get to France, that it would be very useful to
have.

Suggestions from anyone in UK who is doing this via satellite would be
very welcome.

Derek

Derek McBryde <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Linked with this - does anyone in UK follow french TV?
Even though I'm not in the UK, I'll butt in here.

    > Years ago
    >I thought of getting satellite for this. However I think then you
    >needed to be pointed to a different satellite so needed a motorised
    >system, which I couldn't afford.
I have just been investigating this, and am on the brink of ordering a
motorised dish. You might find it worth researching, because it might
be less expensive now than some years ago. I expect to spend less than
500 euro to set up from scratch, and that includes a relatively large
dish.

    > Mind you, given that many
    >europeans watch English speaking programmes, French TV might not be
    >all that wonderful anyway.
I think it's not. In fact, I think it is generally awful. But now and
again there is something worth watching, and I would like to improve
on my language skills.

    >At least to be able to watch the news on TV5 or something like that
    >would be useful. News readers have clear accents and there should be
    >similarities occasionally with International news.
Agreed. Plus the advantage of getting a different perspective on world
affairs.

--
PB
The return address has been MUNGED

Derek McBryde wrote:

    > >
    > >One classic mispronunciation of English speakers is Gare (train station)
    > >and Guerre (war).
    > English people are very familiar with the tale of Robin Hood and
    > Richard the Lionheart (Coeur de Lion).

Are they familiar with the mythical Richard the Lionheart or the blood thirsty
scoundrel that he really was? I grew up with the Robin Hood of movies and
television and had been led to think of him as a kind and nobel man. When I read
about his life and exploits I discovered that he was anything but.

On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 23:24:04 +0000, Padraig Breathnach
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >Derek McBryde <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>Linked with this - does anyone in UK follow french TV?
    >Even though I'm not in the UK, I'll butt in here.

Always welcome
    >> Years ago
    >>I thought of getting satellite for this. However I think then you
    >>needed to be pointed to a different satellite so needed a motorised
    >>system, which I couldn't afford.
    >I have just been investigating this, and am on the brink of ordering a
    >motorised dish. You might find it worth researching, because it might
    >be less expensive now than some years ago. I expect to spend less than
    >500 euro to set up from scratch, and that includes a relatively large
    >dish.

That sounds good value.

Always useful to know what people concluded after research. If you
don't mind, and if you find the time, I would be interested in
learning some details of what you decided. Probably best to take
this off line as it is not travel related.
    >> Mind you, given that many
    >>europeans watch English speaking programmes, French TV might not be
    >>all that wonderful anyway.
    >I think it's not. In fact, I think it is generally awful. But now and
    >again there is something worth watching, and I would like to improve
    >on my language skills.

I have just rediscovered (like tonight) Radio France Internationale
(RFI) . Back in mid 90's I used to access Parler au Quotidien which
was then between Evelyne Lattanzio and Yvan Amar. Apart from the
educational value, it was fun the way they tossed words around to give
you the 'modern' usages.

It's still there at
http://www.rfi.fr/fichiers/langue_fr..._quotidien.asp
only now its Anne-Cécile Bras talking with Yvan Amar.

It's been many years since I last accessed it so I don't know when the
ladies changed.

There are many other language offerings on RFI and the great thing is
that you can listen (or download and listen) to the spoken word as
well as read the text.

Downside is you are stuck at the computer.

I will be investigating further.
    >>At least to be able to watch the news on TV5 or something like that
    >>would be useful. News readers have clear accents and there should be
    >>similarities occasionally with International news.
    >Agreed. Plus the advantage of getting a different perspective on world
    >affairs.

I bet Jean-Pierre Raffarin wished he had a different perspective

Derek

On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 18:41:20 -0500, Dave Smith wrote:

    > Derek McBryde wrote:
    >
    >> >
    >> >One classic mispronunciation of English speakers is Gare (train station)
    >> >and Guerre (war).
    >> English people are very familiar with the tale of Robin Hood and
    >> Richard the Lionheart (Coeur de Lion).
    >
    > Are they familiar with the mythical Richard the Lionheart or the blood thirsty
    > scoundrel that he really was? I grew up with the Robin Hood of movies and
    > television and had been led to think of him as a kind and nobel man. When I read
    > about his life and exploits I discovered that he was anything but.

I always thought he was reasonably OK for his time. His father was quite
a bit worse, wasn't he.

Coming back to France though, I find it amazing how so few people in
France know where he is buried. But then they probably prefer to be
unaware also of who his mother was.

    :-)

devil <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 18:41:20 -0500, Dave Smith wrote:
    >> Derek McBryde wrote:
    >>
    >>> >
    >>> >One classic mispronunciation of English speakers is Gare (train station)
    >>> >and Guerre (war).
    >>> English people are very familiar with the tale of Robin Hood and
    >>> Richard the Lionheart (Coeur de Lion).
    >>
    >> Are they familiar with the mythical Richard the Lionheart or the blood thirsty
    >> scoundrel that he really was? I grew up with the Robin Hood of movies and
    >> television and had been led to think of him as a kind and nobel man. When I read
    >> about his life and exploits I discovered that he was anything but.
    >I always thought he was reasonably OK for his time. His father was quite
    >a bit worse, wasn't he.
    >Coming back to France though, I find it amazing how so few people in
    >France know where he is buried. But then they probably prefer to be
    >unaware also of who his mother was.
Is it only French people who don't know where he is buried? I'd bet
that most English people don't know, either.

I've been there.

--
PB
The return address has been MUNGED

On Wed, 24 Mar 2004 02:22:19 +0000, Padraig Breathnach wrote:

    > devil <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 18:41:20 -0500, Dave Smith wrote:
    >>> Derek McBryde wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> >
    >>>> >One classic mispronunciation of English speakers is Gare (train station)
    >>>> >and Guerre (war).
    >>>> English people are very familiar with the tale of Robin Hood and
    >>>> Richard the Lionheart (Coeur de Lion).
    >>>
    >>> Are they familiar with the mythical Richard the Lionheart or the blood thirsty
    >>> scoundrel that he really was? I grew up with the Robin Hood of movies and
    >>> television and had been led to think of him as a kind and nobel man. When I read
    >>> about his life and exploits I discovered that he was anything but.
    >>I always thought he was reasonably OK for his time. His father was quite
    >>a bit worse, wasn't he.
    >>Coming back to France though, I find it amazing how so few people in
    >>France know where he is buried. But then they probably prefer to be
    >>unaware also of who his mother was.
    > Is it only French people who don't know where he is buried? I'd bet
    > that most English people don't know, either.
    >
    > I've been there.

Didn't you notice that few of the visitors are French.

BTW, what they claim to have been the kitchen looked odd, we thought.

devil <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Wed, 24 Mar 2004 02:22:19 +0000, Padraig Breathnach wrote:
    >> devil <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >>>On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 18:41:20 -0500, Dave Smith wrote:
    >>>> Are they familiar with the mythical Richard the Lionheart or the blood thirsty
    >>>> scoundrel that he really was? I grew up with the Robin Hood of movies and
    >>>> television and had been led to think of him as a kind and nobel man. When I read
    >>>> about his life and exploits I discovered that he was anything but.
    >>>I always thought he was reasonably OK for his time. His father was quite
    >>>a bit worse, wasn't he.
    >>>Coming back to France though, I find it amazing how so few people in
    >>>France know where he is buried. But then they probably prefer to be
    >>>unaware also of who his mother was.
    >> Is it only French people who don't know where he is buried? I'd bet
    >> that most English people don't know, either.
    >>
    >> I've been there.
    >Didn't you notice that few of the visitors are French.
There were very few visitors there the last time we visited. But the
young man working at the acceuil was Dutch.

    >BTW, what they claim to have been the kitchen looked odd, we thought.
27 flues, I think. Draughty.

--
PB
The return address has been MUNGED

On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 18:49:42 GMT, Frank F. Matthews wrote:

    > You might try a serious search. A cursory one got the following
    >
    > "Absinthe is still available in Spain, Portugal, and the Czech Republic,
    > where it is quite trendy among patrons of bars and coffeehouses. It is
    > also legal in Britain and reportedly is available in Andorra and Denmark."
    >
    > FFM

...and Switzerland. And I've seen it on the drinks list in some Austrian
bars.
--
Tim C.

On 24/03/04 0:01, in article [email protected], "Derek
McBryde" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 12:54:25 +0100, Earl Evleth <[email protected]>
    > wrote:
    >

    >
    > Mind you, I have heard native french speakers say "sink" for cinq and
    > other variations of accent so the English are not unique.

I would say that the pronunciation sounds closer to "sank" that "sink".

Harry`s bar in Paris advertised "Ask for " Sank Roo Doe Noo," and the cabbie
will know where to take you)".

The reason fo the "sank" pronunciation is that it is hard for some to
differentiate from the word "cent". So if you told the Cabbie "cent"
in error he might not find it!

Contrary to what non-French speaker think, French accents vary within
France quite a bit. With numbers, people from the south of France may
pronounce the "e" at the end of words, which drops out in the north. Like
the number "trente", is closer to trent (soft) in the north and "tren-tah"
in the south.

As people know, spoken French has a lot of "letter dropout", and this
makes spelling difficult. It matches English in this respect. German
is a snap in this respect. If the letter is there, it is used. The
problem in German is the vocabulary. French has a great deal of
overlap with English which allows, when learning to read, to
figure out meaning of words from context, giving up having to
use a dictionary, which is always a bitch.

    > The "-ion " ending in french is a challenge for native english
    > speakers. In trying to get away from the 'shun' sound we attempt to
    > pronounce it with two syllables eg "ee-own" whereas it is only one
    > syllable. So nation would be more like 'nah-seeown' (I can't
    > really think of how to write it phonetically).

The French "r" is possibly the hardest for English speakers. As I mentioned
the French have a problem with the English "th", so much so that I gave up
a long time ago and say my name is "Evlette", then spell it out.

The "r" is terrible and if one is asking for dessert and one end up
ordering "desert", sand and all!


    > English speakers have the same challenge with words like 'votre" . We
    > enunciate two syllables and pronounce like 'vot-re' whereas it is
    > closer to 'vot' .

I pronounce it vo-trah, very very soft on the trah, allowing it to drop
away.

Curiously the "trah" brings the tongue close to where it should be
for the English "th", just back from the top of the front teeth rather than
the bottom.
    >
    > We also have a challenge with the nasal 'en', 'in' and 'un' sounds.
    > (Sometimes we grunt the word for 'one' because we don't know whether
    > the noun is masculin or feminine. The grunt is offered as a sort of
    > compromise hoping the listener will hear the correct one )

One slurs!

    > However, I believe we mostly grunt because we can't hear the
    > subtleties between 'un' , 'en' and 'in' sounds in the first place.
    > Also our facial muscles are not trained to make the correct shapes.
    > It's amazing the difference in vowel sound you make when you raise
    > your cheek muscles. Try practising with your hands on your face and
    > you will 'feel' the sound. 'Un' for one requires this raising of
    > the cheek muscles. Well it does for me"
    >
    > For those with school or 'holiday' french only, and no opportunity to
    > regularly hear native speakers, it is a big challenge to acquire and
    > retain any semblance of a proper accent. I guess we should respect
    > people who at least make an effort. Many don't.

When first learning to hear I found that politicians are the easiest to
understand since if you know their politics you know what they are going
to say. News announcers are also the easiest. Face to face conversation
is next easiest since people will adapt to one`s ability in the language.
Listening to conversation between natives is the last stage of learning
along with movie French, which comes is all shades and tones. Dubbed
films having standard plots, like American cowboy movies, are not hard.

I am always amazed that who ever they got to dub John Wayne sounds like
John Wayne! Jimmy Stewart and Doris Day were on last night, in French,
and they sounded like the real two but speaking French.

Earl