> I occasionally have a ouzo in Greece, which is Pernod in France.
    >
    > You have to like the licorice taste, ....

You have to like the aniseed flavour. There might well be licorice in it
but I'd hardly point it out as its main flavour.

--
Tim C.

On 23/03/04 12:08, in article [email protected], "Ulf
Kutzner" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >> dry wine since Aligonte is near impossible to get here in the states.
    >
    > Spelling it "Aligoté" might help.


One is surprised at the tolerance of French waiter`s ears!

One classic mispronunciation of English speakers is Gare (train station)
and Guerre (war).

I posted this a few years ago.

Earl

****

THE WAR IN LYON

One of the difficulties of high school French is that it is quickly
forgotten and probably never really learned. Two years of the
stuff at the age of 16-17 evaporates by the time one is 40 or 50.
The most difficult part of the language is that even familiar words are not
pronounced the same. The Europeans` pronunciation of the alphabet from Ah
to Zed is already different than the American (A as in hey, to Z as in Zee).
About 30% of French vocabulary uses the same words as in English, but the
pronunciations are different . Nation. In American English it is pronounced
as "nay-shun" and in French as 'nah-ce-own". More or less!

One of the most common errors English speakers make is when they jump into
a cab and mutter " Guerre de Lyon " when they want to go to Lyon train
station in Paris; The driver usually understands since he or she has
encountered it thousands of times; The French ear wants to hear "Gare"
(train station) which rhymes with the English word "bar", not " guerre "
(war) which rhymes with "bear".

Historically, Lyon is not known for its wars. It escaped being a battle
zone in WWI and WWII although was an active site for the resistance. My
French history is poor but I remember no famous battle in the region.
Certainly it has escaped modern military attention so asking the taxi driver
to take you to any contemporary conflict in the region will fail and lead
him to let you off at the Gare to Lyon . This successful arrival will
deceptively lead you to believe that your French is not that bad at all,
perfect in fact, since your desired destination has been reached.

The above subject popped into my head because of the Gare de Austerlitz and
the habit of Europeans to name train stations after famous victorious
battles in history. Napoleon, a war criminal from a few centuries ago
actually won a battle at Austerlitz which the French have not forgotten.
The bottom line battle of his career, however, was at Waterloo. He lost.

There is no Waterloo station in Paris, or elsewhere in France. To find this
train station one will have to go to London, where they still crow about
the job they did on Napoleon. Note, however the Brits have no train station
named after the battle at Yorktown (which they lost to the French, with
some minor help from the Americans). On the other hand, the Paris
Gare du Nord (North) and Gare de l'Est (East) could be taken in a general
sense when it comes to wars, since both of those regions have had so many
of them.

The Americans, believing that history is bunk, have never, to my knowledge,
named any train station after a battle. The Americans, however, never
have had a clear idea on which battles or wars they won or lost. The war of
1812 did not go that well, and the Alamo was a defeat. Pearl Harbor rallied
the nation, and the loss of the Philippines were historical
incidents. True, Vietnam is not a proud moment in the nation's history, but
history never influenced train station naming as in Europe.

Anyway, you can be assured that the French will accept your bad French
gladly if they can get an inkling of an idea of what you are trying to buy
from them. The exchange of money greases the tracks of international
exchange and good will. Pronunciation is secondary.

On 23/03/04 12:47, in article
[email protected] , "Tim Challenger"
<"timothy(dot)challenger(at)apk(dot)at"> wrote:

    >> I occasionally have a ouzo in Greece, which is Pernod in France.
    >>
    >> You have to like the licorice taste, ....
    >
    > You have to like the aniseed flavour. There might well be licorice in it
    > but I'd hardly point it out as its main flavour.


The taste of licorice is close enough to anise based drinks
to give people an idea of what it might taste like.

From the web----

"the main flavor ingredient of licorice candy is anise."


Earl

***

LICORICE

Licorice root contains a substance called glycyrrhizin that is 50 times
sweeter than ordinary sugar.

Spain is the largest producer of licorice.

90% of the licorice used as a flavoring is used to flavor tobacco. Licorice
candy contains small amounts of licorice, but the main flavor ingredient of
licorice candy is anise.

Carbenoxolone, a compound derived from licorice root, has been used to help
healing of peptic ulcers. The disadvantage of this compound is that in 1/3
of patients it raises blood pressure, increases fluid retention and promotes
potassium loss. ÂÂ
  ÂÂ
This is a problem only with licorice, and not with other plants with similar
flavors such as anise and fennel.  ÂÂ
 ÂÂ
Licorice, anise and fennel share one common flavor component, anethole. This
is NOT what causes problems with high blood pressure.   ÂÂ
ÂÂ
Licorice root contains several other compounds not found in anise and
fennel. One of these is glycyrrhizin which is 50 times sweeter than sugar.
ÂÂ

On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 13:06:28 +0100, Earl Evleth wrote:

    > <"timothy(dot)challenger(at)apk(dot)at"> wrote:
    >
    >>> I occasionally have a ouzo in Greece, which is Pernod in France.
    >>>
    >>> You have to like the licorice taste, ....
    >>
    >> You have to like the aniseed flavour. There might well be licorice in it
    >> but I'd hardly point it out as its main flavour.
    >
    > The taste of licorice is close enough to anise based drinks
    > to give people an idea of what it might taste like.
    >
    > From the web----
    >
    > "the main flavor ingredient of licorice candy is anise."

I do know the difference between aniseed and licorice. The licorice bars
and sweets I have had all taste predominantly of licorice, maybe they're a
different mix in the US. If you mean those little, hard, bean-like
creations, they have so many other things in like menthol that I don't know
what I'd call them.

--
Tim C.

Earl Evleth muttered....

"Tim Challenger"
wrote:
    >
    >>> I occasionally have a ouzo in Greece, which is Pernod in France.
    >>>
    >>> You have to like the licorice taste, ....
    >>
    >> You have to like the aniseed flavour. There might well be licorice in
    >> it but I'd hardly point it out as its main flavour.
    >
    >
    > The taste of licorice is close enough to anise based drinks
    > to give people an idea of what it might taste like.
    >
    > From the web----
    >
    > "the main flavor ingredient of licorice candy is anise."
    >

I find a great difference, more than just degree of sweetness among the
various anise-flavored drinks of the Mediterranean littoral.

Arak, raki and ouzo represent one end of the spectrum, but vary widely by
manufacturer/distiller, a rainbow of intensities of flavor. Sambuca is to
me the best of Italian anisettes, but the black version is over-rated, and
several of the brand names cover cheap, unpalatable swill.

The battle in France is between Pernod and Ricard, for a warm afternoon
without pastis is a bad day for all.... I Think I like Perod best, but
would be hard pressed to turn down Ricard when offered. I simply don't
have expereince with other brands.

Then there's the ultimate test for anis drinkers, the pride or misfortune
of Spain, Anis del Mono (Seco), a violent and harsh slap up the side of the
head, of which two is far too many.

Those of us raised when Paregoric was still the infant bowel and
temperament calmative of choice are partial to a bit/hit of anise in the
evening.

TMO

Earl Evleth a écrit :

    > More acceptable is a flûte of champagne or, possibly
    > a KIR
    > First, kirs can be prepared using either a white wine or
    > champagne (kir royal).
    > The traditional kir is composed of 1/3rd crème de cassis (from
    > Dijon) and 2/3 of aligoté, a white wine from Burgundy.
    > To reduce the sugary content CUT the crème de cassis.
    > Other crèmes can be used
    > crème de framboise
    > crème de mûr
    > These will produce various colors of kirs, red, blue etc.
    > The origins of the name??
    > The story seems to involve a mayor of Digon may have served
    > it or at least he gave the commercial right to use his
    > name in connection with it. He was a member of the
    > resistance ("de la première heure", même) and lived
    > to be 92, by drinking kirs, sans doute.

He was the Chanoine Kir. "Chanoine" is a position in the Catholic
church, I don't know how it translates to English. Was he really mayor
of Dijon?

Nathalie in Switzerland

Earl Evleth <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Anyway, a kir won`t wipe out your taste buds.

Nor will a G&T (probably why it's quite a popular before-dinner drink in
some areas)- that's my preference.

David

--
David Horne- www.davidhorne.net
davidhorne (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk

devil a écrit :

    > On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 11:45:46 -0800, bondog wrote:
    > > Earl Evleth <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<BC83781D.2B681%[email protected]>...
    > >> The traditional kir is composed of 1/3rd crème de cassis (from
    > >> Dijon) and 2/3 of aligoté, a white wine from Burgundy.
    > >>
    > > Isn't it true that most whites from Burgandy are actually the same as
    > > Chardonnay in the US?
    > Well, white burgundy is made from Chardonnay grapes. But's about where
    > the comparison stops.
    > Indeed they are typically made in a very different way. French burgundies
    > are bone dry, very austere, nothing like flowery, grassy (yuck) California
    > Chardonnay. And no, I don't like the Australian ones either.
    > Arguably the two French wines that remain way above competition from
    > elsewhere (at least in my book) are Chardonnay and Alsace wines such as
    > obviously Gewurztraminer, and also their light Pinot Noir.

And anyway, Aligoté is not Chardonnay. Aligoté is a grape name, and is the only white wine from
Burgundy not made with Chardonnay.

Nathalie in Switzerland

On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 15:59:39 +0100, Nathalie Chiva wrote:

    > Earl Evleth a écrit :
    >
    >> The origins of the name??
    >> The story seems to involve a mayor of Digon may have served
    >> it or at least he gave the commercial right to use his
    >> name in connection with it. He was a member of the
    >> resistance ("de la première heure", même) and lived
    >> to be 92, by drinking kirs, sans doute.
    >
    > He was the Chanoine Kir. "Chanoine" is a position in the Catholic
    > church, I don't know how it translates to English.

Canon.

On 23/03/04 15:59, in article [email protected], "Nathalie Chiva"
<[email protected]> wrote:

    > Was he really mayor
    > of Dijon?


His career is on the web, that is www.google.fr, is you ask for "Kir"
it is the first item which pops up.

http://dijoon.free.fr/kir.htm


En 1940, les circonstances en font un homme politique. A la Libération, le
chanoine est naturellement élu maire de Dijon. Conseiller général, député
de la Côte-d'Or de 1945 à1967, il est le Doyen d'âge de l'Assemblée
Nationale de 1953 à1967. Il meurt le 26 avril 1968. Il a 92 ans.

Ce commandeur de la Légion d'Honneur (1957) restera pour les Bourguignons
un personnage au charisme affirmé.


Le chanoine Kir est aussi un résistant de la première heure. Il défend
ses concitoyens face àl'occupant allemand. Durant le
conflit, il assure le ravitaillement de ces administrés.

Il rend possible l'évasion de 5000 prisonniers de guerre français
du camp de Longvic. Arrêté pour son activité de résistant, il est condamné
àmort. Il force le respect du vainqueur par son cran et sa dignité.
Gracié, il n'en continue pas moins son action clandestine. Arrêté
une seconde fois, il est l'objet d'un attentat perpétré par la Milice.
Grièvement blessé, il réussit àse soustraire aux recherches de la Gestapo
décidée àle supprimer.

On lui décerne la citation àl'ordre de l'Armée lors de sa nomination au
grade de chevalier de la Légion d'Honneur, en 1945.

***

So not only was he attacked by the Germans but the French Milice. Wounded
etc.

In fact this is all exciting stuff and several books should be available.

I don`t know how many French were "résistants de la première heure"
in 1940-41, thousands no doubt but things were poorly organized and
many got caught because of poor security.

All this and the drink too.

I will drink to that.

earl

devil wrote:
    > On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 11:45:46 -0800, bondog wrote:
    >
    >
    >>Earl Evleth <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<BC83781D.2B681%[email protected]>...
    >>>The traditional kir is composed of 1/3rd crème de cassis (from
    >>>Dijon) and 2/3 of aligoté, a white wine from Burgundy.
    >>Isn't it true that most whites from Burgandy are actually the same as
    >>Chardonnay in the US?
    >
    >
    >
    > Well, white burgundy is made from Chardonnay grapes. But's about where
    > the comparison stops.
    >
    > Indeed they are typically made in a very different way. French burgundies
    > are bone dry, very austere, nothing like flowery, grassy (yuck) California
    > Chardonnay. And no, I don't like the Australian ones either.
    >
    > Arguably the two French wines that remain way above competition from
    > elsewhere (at least in my book) are Chardonnay and Alsace wines such as
    > obviously Gewurztraminer, and also their light Pinot Noir.

Don't forget the sublime Alsace Pinot Gris. As for Riesling wine, I
would advocate the German Rieslings, which are less flat than their
French counterparts. They tend to be a bit sweeter, but this is
compensated by a sourery "twang", giving it more depth.

Nils

On 23/03/04 16:01, in article
1gb3upg.jaf2nrlswhhqN%this_address_is_for_spam@yah oo.co.uk, "David Horne"
<[email protected]> wrote:

    > Nor will a G&T (probably why it's quite a popular before-dinner drink in
    > some areas)- that's my preference.


Perhaps "a gin and tonic" but they are easy to drink, several at least.

We have been talking about ouzo too, which also is a sneaky drink.
You think you are drinking nothing much and then "bam" you are
staggering around.

Kirs stop at one and have no effect on me. A shared bottle of
wine does, however.

My worst hanger over came from drinking scotch with an American friend at a
ski resort on the Pyrénées. it was high up and that is known
to accentuate the effects. It was a two day hang over.

We are at a French meeting, all the other people were French
and during the evening dinner people started singing, and
asked us to sing some American "folk songs". We were pretty
well gone and they did not understand the English so we
sang dirty songs, and were cheered by all who understood
none of the lyrics.

I gave up that kind of drinking 20 years ago.

Earl

"David Horne" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:1gb3upg.jaf2nrlswhhqN%[email protected]...
    > Earl Evleth <[email protected]> wrote:
    > > Anyway, a kir won`t wipe out your taste buds.
    > Nor will a G&T (probably why it's quite a popular before-dinner drink in
    > some areas)- that's my preference.
    > David
    > --
    > David Horne- www.davidhorne.net
    > davidhorne (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk

Have you tried a Negoni? equal parts of Campari, gin, and sweet vermouth,
shaken with ice and strained or on the rocks. The best of all worlds.

By the way I understand that British sailors used to be called "limeys"
(maybe they still are) because they would take fresh limes on sailing
expeditions with them to stave off scurvy. Then why is it that anywhere in
England I went, which
was all over, I can't get a G&T with a fresh lime? I started drinking
"bitters" which came to be quickly habit forming.

Also can someone enlighten me on C. de Mur. I "googled" it but with no
satisfaction and my food dictionary does not have it. What is it and does it
go by an English name. Thanks.

Coooooooo.... Paregoric!!! My Grandmother loved it too...<g>

But what of that ultimate forbidden (in the US) European drink for
Adults... Absinthe??? Is the real (Wormwood) stuff available? Did it
ever actually contain narcotics? Is it safe??? Will I spout dark
poetry after imbibing???

Tim K

"Olivers" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

    > Those of us raised when Paregoric was still the infant bowel and
    > temperament calmative of choice are partial to a bit/hit of anise in
the
    > evening.
    > TMO

You might try a serious search. A cursory one got the following

"Absinthe is still available in Spain, Portugal, and the Czech Republic,
where it is quite trendy among patrons of bars and coffeehouses. It is
also legal in Britain and reportedly is available in Andorra and Denmark."

FFM

Tim Kroesen wrote:

    > Coooooooo.... Paregoric!!! My Grandmother loved it too...<g>
    >
    > But what of that ultimate forbidden (in the US) European drink for
    > Adults... Absinthe??? Is the real (Wormwood) stuff available? Did it
    > ever actually contain narcotics? Is it safe??? Will I spout dark
    > poetry after imbibing???
    >
    > Tim K
    >
    > "Olivers" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    >
    >
    >>Those of us raised when Paregoric was still the infant bowel and
    >>temperament calmative of choice are partial to a bit/hit of anise in
    >
    > the
    >
    >>evening.
    >>TMO
    >
    >