On Thu, 26 Apr 2007 23:14:18 +0200, Deeply Filled Mortician
<deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:

>>How long do you think that takes?
>
>Hours that would be better spent sightseeing, relaxing, or eating and
>drinking.

*minutes* not hours, you will probably be away in your car before the
train traveller has a ticket.

>>>trying to park, driving around, getting lost, dealing with a new
>>>driving culture, possibly needing an international drivers licence
>>>(for the Americans, not sure), add to that the high cost, plus if you
>>>crash it, your holiday is likely to be ruined.
>>
>>and if you get run over by a bus?
>
>That can also happen in a car.

so its a draw, non issue.

>> If you crash a hire car and have had the sense to take out full insurance, they
>>just give you another one.
>
>Martin: "Urm, we've crashed our car. Can we have another?"
>Agency: "No problem. Should it be delivered by a blonde, or brunette?"

Its never happened to me but I would expect the insurance to cover
replacement, anybody know? At worse I would hire another in what's
exceptional circumstance, not the end of the world you imply. At the
absolute worse you are left with PT, if its so marvelous, it wont be a
problem, will it? Or are there things you're not saying, like car
tourists get to places PT users don't?

>>I think you exaggerate the problems. Driving in Italy is no worse than many
>>other places. I feel happier driving in Italy than in the Netherlands.
>
>Parking sucks massively anywhere in Italy you'd want to go,

maybe parking sucks anywhere *you* want to go?

>and roads are narrow,

modern cars come equipped with a steering wheel

>and traffic is chaotic.

true in cities and motorways are crowded.

>>> And all this time you
>>>are focussed on driving, and not on enjoying the scenery.
>>>
>>>The alternative is to sit on the train, and relax while the scenery
>>>goes past.
>>
>>We have rented a hire car for a week in Italy several times. We found it saved a
>>lot of hanging around waiting for public transport. Whether or not it is worth
>>having a rental car depends very much on what you want to do in Italy.
>
>I'm guessing it wasn't your first two weeks in Italy.

I hired a car on my first trip to Italy, no problems. I also parked in
all those "impossible" places and drove in Napoli.
--
Mike Reid
UK walking, food, photos "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Spain walking, food, tourism "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk"
Beginners UK flight sim addons "http://www.lawn-mower-man.co.uk"

On Thu, 26 Apr 2007 23:24:11 +0200, Deeply Filled Mortician
<deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:

>Make credence recognised that on Thu, 26 Apr 2007 13:00:53 +0100, The
>Reid <[email protected]> has scripted:
>
>>On Thu, 26 Apr 2007 13:55:02 +0200, Deeply Filled Mortician
>><deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
>>
>>>Two weeks vacation, minus time picking up and dropping off the car,
>>
>>you are joking, about 20 minutes. How much time will the train option
>>spend waiting at stations?
>
>20 MINUTES???
>
>That wouldn't even cover the time it takes to fill out forms, let
>alone find the place (twice), collect the car, return it with the tank
>full, and waiting for the agents to get there shit together. Come
>on...

The forms are already filled out if you are a regular user. Even when they are
not it hardly takes more than a few minutes.
In most places all I ever did was show my driving licence and initial the
insurance boxes and sign. If you are a regular user, when you return the car,
you write the number of Km on the speedo on the form and put the form and key in
the box provided.



>
>>>trying to park, driving around, getting lost, dealing with a new
>>>driving culture, possibly needing an international drivers licence
>>>(for the Americans, not sure), add to that the high cost, plus if you
>>>crash it, your holiday is likely to be ruined.
>>
>>>And all this time you
>>>are focussed on driving, and not on enjoying the scenery.
>>
>>not really true, you still see the scenery and you turn off and stop
>>when its good, unless maybe if you are a "grip wheel, mouth open" type
>>driver
>
>No problem. In Italy there are nice wide parking areas anywhere you'd
>want to pullover. Remember the Amalfi Coast?
>
>>>The alternative is to sit on the train, and relax while the scenery
>>>goes past.
>>
>>the scenery available from trains is not usually the best and you cant
>>stop to take photos. Its *far* from cut and dried. I visited loads of
>>small places in Italy you wouldn't get to by train unless you had a
>>*lot* of time. for the cities you just park asap and do the city on
>>foot, then when you leave you go where you want. Italy *is* a country
>>where train is a good option, but its only one option.
>
>For a first 2 week journey, I wouldn't recommend anything else.

It depends whether you want to spend your holiday in city centres or not.

My impression from what you have said is that you never use a car.
--

Martin

On Thu, 26 Apr 2007 13:55:02 +0200, Deeply Filled Mortician
<deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:

>Two weeks vacation, minus time picking up and dropping off the car,
>trying to park, driving around, getting lost, dealing with a new
>driving culture, possibly needing an international drivers licence
>(for the Americans, not sure), add to that the high cost, plus if you
>crash it, your holiday is likely to be ruined. And all this time you
>are focussed on driving, and not on enjoying the scenery.

I seriously doubt that this person is an American, as he used the term
"campings" where an American would generally say "campgrounds".
--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup

On 25 Apr 2007 09:57:07 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

>Hi! My husband and I (we live in the US) are going to travel to Italy
>for about two weeks in Aug - Sept. Neither of us speaks Italian or has
>prior travel experience traveling to Italy, so we need your advice
>regarding the following:
>
>1. Time to travel: we plan our trip for late Aug - early Sept. I
>wonder if we chose a good time of the year. We're relatively flexible
>as to when to travel and would prefer still warm, but not too hot
>weather. Did we choose the right time?

It's very hard to predict how hot it will be at that time of the year.
Usually the worst of the heat is over, but not always. A few weeks
later would be more dependable.

>2. Car rental: we were planning to fly to Milan and then rent a car
>and drive to Rome and fly back to the States from there. What is the
>best place to rent a car in terms of a). rates; b). reliability; c).
>pick up/drop off in different cities. We need the most simple car
>there is. The major international car rentals like Hertz are pretty
>pricy - are there any Italian rentals that are cheaper and just as
>good?

Given the itinerary you propose (Florence, Rome, Venice, Sienna) I
doubt that a car would be very useful to you, except possibly for
getting from Florence to Sienna, visiting small towns in the vicinity
of Sienna. In Rome, Florence, and Venice a car is a big handicap. In
Venice the car must be left at a lot in the periphery. In Florence,
driving and parking are near impossible. Rome is little better. You
would be much better to take the train, except possibly in Tuscany.
Even there, you can get around pretty well on a bus.

You also said you wanted to meet local people. A car seals you off
from the local people much more than the train does.

> 3. Places to visit: we would like to visit the major cities and sights
>(Milan, Sienna, Florence, Venice, etc.), however we both have really
>limited knowledge of Italy (hopefully more by the time we go on
>vacation, thanks to your replies :-). We would also like to visit
>smaller towns, that are maybe not on a "must see" list of a regular
>tourist guide, but are worth visiting. What are such places?

Near Sienna, you might visit Montalcino, which is a charming hilltop
town famous for its wine. You can get there by bus from Sienna in
about an hour. Near Rome, actually on the train line coming from
Florence, you could visit Orvieto, a small city in Umbria with a
well-preserved medieval center. (Orvieto would be much less crowded
with tourists than Montalcino.)

>4. Hotels: I was going to reserve a hotel for our stay in Milan and
>Rome, but look for accomodations in other towns as we get there. Is
>this a good idea or will it be much harder/more expensive to book a
>hotel the same day or a day in advance rather than weeks ahead?
>What is the best way to look for a hotel - expedia, travelocity, etc.
>or are there some Italian websites? We'd like to stay in 2-3 star
>hotels, nothing fancy, not necessarily in the center, but within a
>reasonable driving distance. Also - please tell if it is a crazy
>idea - would it be convenient to stay at campings? Are there are
>campings (those that have all major amenities) close to big cities? Is
>it much cheaper than hotels? How can I find those campings online?

www.venere.com is a good site for hotels in Italy. I believe its
originally an Italian site, but it's gone international. I also like
www.fodors.com which has a good unbiased description of the hotels as
well as a "favorites" selection. In Italy, don't rely on the number of
stars, as they are given automatically to a hotel that has the
required features on a checklist, with no regard to overall quality
of the hotel. Before committing yourself to any hotel, check its
rating on www.tripadvisor.com , where you can check opinions of people
who have stayed in the hotels. (Of course, some hotels get their
relatives to submit glowing reports, but you can usually spot those.)

I've never stayed in an Italian campground. I don't agree with DFM
that they are almost always located in out-of-the-way spots. I am
always amazed to see ocean front campgrounds near where I live; you
hardly ever would see these in the US, where I used to live. However,
there are not likely to be campgrounds very close to the centers of
the major cities.

>5. Meeting the locals: I would like to meet Iocals, who would like to
>spend a couple of hours showing us around the city, chat about life,
>share a lunch, etc. Since we don't speak Italian, we need somebody who
>speaks English. What is the best way to look for locals who would like
>to show us around? Are their some Italian websites where you can look
>for activity partners?

I know a guide in Rome who is an American but has lived in Italy for
years. She is very willing to tailor a tour to your specifications,
and probably could arrange for you to meet locals. Here is her
website: http://www.rome-tours.com

If you go to the tourist office of any city, they can probably point
you to a personal guide, and most of these guides should be amenable
to getting you in contact with local people. However, when time is
limited, it would be better to arrange this before your arrival. One
way to do this is to look for an organization in the town called the
"Pro Loco". This is an organization of volunteers who offer services
to tourists as well as plan local festivals and events for residents.
If you can find a local event going on, you have a good chance of
meeting local people attending the event. You could also try googling
the name of a town and the word "events" (or the Italian "eventi").

The smaller the town, the easier it is to meet local people. However,
the more crowded with tourists the town, the harder it is to meet
local people. Tuscany in September is particularly crowded with
foreign tourists, so I wouldn't count on meeting many locals there.
Most of them (except those in the tourist industry) probably are a bit
tired of the foreigners in their streets and may be seeking ways to
get away from them.

Something I've always thought would be a good idea, although it would
take a lot of advance planning, would be to contact a local group that
shares your interests. Let's say you fly model airplanes; you might
want to find a contact for a model airplane group in Italy and see if
you can go to a model airplane meet. I've never tried this sort of
thing, but I think it might be the most satisfying way to meet local
people.

>6. Books/guides: there's still some time until we go, so I'd like to
>read a good guide on Italy - one that is not too boring, yet gives all
>the major information that you should know as a tourist and one that
>you can use to plan sight-seeing. Any tips on a good book/travel
>guide?

A good guide for planning your trip is the DK Eyewitness Guide. It has
lots of pictures, which is very useful at the planning stage. However,
it's a bit short on useful information as well as being rather heavy,
so you might want to buy another guide to take along on the trip and
leave the DK at home. I suggest you browse a bookstore to see which
guides appeal to your taste. The Michelin Green Guide is good for
museums and monuments, and also has good suggestions for drives. The
Lonely Planet is pretty well liked, although I have found it rather
inaccurate at times when I used it in Ireland. I have also found the
Rough Guide to be inaccurate, both the Italian edition and the Spanish
edition, although a lot of people like it. For finding lodging, I use
Let's Go, Italy a lot, but it doesn't deal much in 3-star lodgings.
Fodors and Frommers guides to Italy are reliable and a bit more
upscale than Let's Go.


--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup

Make credence recognised that on Sun, 29 Apr 2007 21:07:49 +0200, B
Vaughan<[email protected]> has scripted:

>On Thu, 26 Apr 2007 13:55:02 +0200, Deeply Filled Mortician
><deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
>
>>Two weeks vacation, minus time picking up and dropping off the car,
>>trying to park, driving around, getting lost, dealing with a new
>>driving culture, possibly needing an international drivers licence
>>(for the Americans, not sure), add to that the high cost, plus if you
>>crash it, your holiday is likely to be ruined. And all this time you
>>are focussed on driving, and not on enjoying the scenery.
>
>I seriously doubt that this person is an American, as he used the term
>"campings" where an American would generally say "campgrounds".

She's from St Louis, if her posts are correct.
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--

Make credence recognised that on Fri, 27 Apr 2007 08:23:42 +0100, The
Reid <[email protected]> has scripted:

>On Thu, 26 Apr 2007 23:24:11 +0200, Deeply Filled Mortician
><deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:

>>For a first 2 week journey, I wouldn't recommend anything else.
>
>the OP should go with the two unbiased views posted.

Yes, mine and Barbara's. We both live here, and we both agree a car's
not warranted.
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--

On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 23:34:26 +0200, Deeply Filled Mortician
<deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:

>We both live here, and we both agree a car's
>not warranted.

the op would do well to note your statements on pick up time, biased
is in it
--
Mike Reid
UK walking, food, photos "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Spain walking, food, tourism "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk"
Beginners UK flight sim addons "http://www.lawn-mower-man.co.uk"

The Reid <[email protected]> wrote:

[]
> But if you want to see the Scottish Highlands, the English Lake
> District or Spain outside of the big cities, driving is much more
> effective in getting you where you want to be.

All of those places would be better if people considered public
transport, instead of zooming through the roads (perhaps even over the
alcohol limit) at top speed. They're accessible by PT- more effective by
driving in noisy cars? Probably. But, not as nice.

--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
David Horne- http://www.davidhorne.net
(don't email yahoo address) usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk

On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 22:51:08 +0100, [email protected] (David Horne,
_the_ chancellor (*)) wrote:

>> But if you want to see the Scottish Highlands, the English Lake
>> District or Spain outside of the big cities, driving is much more
>> effective in getting you where you want to be.
>
>All of those places would be better if people considered public
>transport,

PT is never going to be viable in low to near zero population areas.

>instead of zooming through the roads (perhaps even over the
>alcohol limit)

what the f*** has drink driving got to do with it. Or "zooming",
trains zoom through the landscape, by car you go whatever pace you
like.

>at top speed.

or "speeding"

>They're accessible by PT- more effective by
>driving in noisy cars? Probably.

An unbiased scottish poster here estimatted that 1/3 of highland hills
were accesible fairly easily by PT, 1/3 with great difficulty and 1/3
not at all.
If you want noise think planes

>But, not as nice.

nicer by car, more accesible, more practical. Its fantasy pretending
getting to, say, Craig Meageadaith makes any sense by PT.
--
Mike Reid
UK walking, food, photos "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Spain walking, food, tourism "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk"
Beginners UK flight sim addons "http://www.lawn-mower-man.co.uk"

Make credence recognised that on Sun, 29 Apr 2007 22:46:54 +0100, The
Reid <[email protected]> has scripted:

>On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 23:34:26 +0200, Deeply Filled Mortician
><deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
>
>>We both live here, and we both agree a car's
>>not warranted.
>
>the op would do well to note your statements on pick up time, biased
>is in it

Put down the bottle and go to bed, Mike!
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--

The Reid <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 22:51:08 +0100, [email protected] (David Horne,
> _the_ chancellor (*)) wrote:
>
> >> But if you want to see the Scottish Highlands, the English Lake
> >> District or Spain outside of the big cities, driving is much more
> >> effective in getting you where you want to be.
> >
> >All of those places would be better if people considered public
> >transport,
>
> PT is never going to be viable in low to near zero population areas.

Most of the places you go to in your life on leisure are easily
accessible by PT. You don't use it because you have a car. That's the
way most people act. Fair enough, but don't pretend otherwise.

>
> >instead of zooming through the roads (perhaps even over the
> >alcohol limit)
>
> what the f*** has drink driving got to do with it.

Because you've conceded you've "probably" done it in Spain, and I think
drunk driving is as low as it gets.

> Or "zooming",
> trains zoom through the landscape, by car you go whatever pace you
> like.

Er, Mike, you zoom up from London to the Lake District frequently, and
brag how easy it is to do, and how quick too!

> >at top speed.
>
> or "speeding"

True- some do both.

> >They're accessible by PT- more effective by
> >driving in noisy cars? Probably.
>
> An unbiased scottish poster here estimatted that 1/3 of highland hills
> were accesible fairly easily by PT, 1/3 with great difficulty and 1/3
> not at all.
> If you want noise think planes

I think noise, and I think what makes most of it in my life. It ain't
planes- most of us don't live near airports, or at 30,000 feet.

> >But, not as nice.
>
> nicer by car, more accesible, more practical. Its fantasy pretending
> getting to, say, Craig Meageadaith makes any sense by PT.

"Craig Meageadaith" makes no sense to me. Where are you talking about>

--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
David Horne- http://www.davidhorne.net
(don't email yahoo address) usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk

>> nicer by car, more accesible, more practical. Its fantasy pretending
>> getting to, say, Craig Meageadaith makes any sense by PT.
> "Craig Meageadaith" makes no sense to me. Where are you talking about?

He means Creag Meagaidh and may be making a pun. (As a musician you
can't be expected to know who Megadeth are).

It's a pretty silly example since most of your time getting to it will
be on foot (ok, you *might* be able to drive a 4WD up Coire Ardair if
you were enough of an arsehole, I've seen wheeltracks tearing up the
landscape in places that remote).

The Scottish Mountaineering Club's take on it (_The Munros_, 1985 ed) is
"There are two very fine walking routes to the summit which if combined
into a traverse make a magnificent mountain expedition, but the finishing
point is 8km along the A86 road from the start. Two cars would be useful
for this trip".

I've been to places that remote by public transport (supplemented by
feet and pushbike). Perhaps we should organize an rte gathering there,
it's not exactly difficult to figure it out if you don't have the mental
deficits of a chronic car driver.

============== j-c ====== @ ====== purr . demon . co . uk =============Jack Campin: 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland | tel 0131 660 4760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> for CD-ROMs and free | fax 0870 0554 975
stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, & Mac logic fonts | mob 07800 739 557

Jack Campin - bogus address <[email protected]> wrote:

> >> nicer by car, more accesible, more practical. Its fantasy pretending
> >> getting to, say, Craig Meageadaith makes any sense by PT.
> > "Craig Meageadaith" makes no sense to me. Where are you talking about?
>
> He means Creag Meagaidh and may be making a pun. (As a musician you
> can't be expected to know who Megadeth are).

I really doubt it was a pun. I suppose I was being a bit of an arsehole-
I knew it was an error, and should have said so, or just have ignored
it, as I usually do- I make spelling errors too naturally. I've heard of
Megadeath, but I only loosely claim to be a musician!

> It's a pretty silly example since most of your time getting to it will
> be on foot (ok, you *might* be able to drive a 4WD up Coire Ardair if
> you were enough of an arsehole, I've seen wheeltracks tearing up the
> landscape in places that remote).
>
> The Scottish Mountaineering Club's take on it (_The Munros_, 1985 ed) is
> "There are two very fine walking routes to the summit which if combined
> into a traverse make a magnificent mountain expedition, but the finishing
> point is 8km along the A86 road from the start. Two cars would be useful
> for this trip".
>
> I've been to places that remote by public transport (supplemented by
> feet and pushbike). Perhaps we should organize an rte gathering there,
> it's not exactly difficult to figure it out if you don't have the mental
> deficits of a chronic car driver.

<applause>

--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
David Horne- http://www.davidhorne.net
(don't email yahoo address) usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk

David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*) <[email protected]> wrote:

> Jack Campin - bogus address <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > >> nicer by car, more accesible, more practical. Its fantasy pretending
> > >> getting to, say, Craig Meageadaith makes any sense by PT.
> > > "Craig Meageadaith" makes no sense to me. Where are you talking about?
> >
> > He means Creag Meagaidh and may be making a pun. (As a musician you
> > can't be expected to know who Megadeth are).
>
> I really doubt it was a pun. I suppose I was being a bit of an arsehole-
> I knew it was an error, and should have said so, or just have ignored
> it, as I usually do- I make spelling errors too naturally. I've heard of
> Megadeath, but I only loosely claim to be a musician!

And now I've done a google to check, you see my claim of being a poor
speller was true, though I was spelling as I heard the band, which is
fair enough, I suppose.

--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
David Horne- http://www.davidhorne.net
(don't email yahoo address) usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk

Deeply Filled Mortician wrote:

> Make credence recognised that on Sun, 29 Apr 2007 21:07:49 +0200, B
> Vaughan<[email protected]> has scripted:
>
>
>>On Thu, 26 Apr 2007 13:55:02 +0200, Deeply Filled Mortician
>><deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Two weeks vacation, minus time picking up and dropping off the car,
>>>trying to park, driving around, getting lost, dealing with a new
>>>driving culture, possibly needing an international drivers licence
>>>(for the Americans, not sure), add to that the high cost, plus if you
>>>crash it, your holiday is likely to be ruined. And all this time you
>>>are focussed on driving, and not on enjoying the scenery.
>>
>>I seriously doubt that this person is an American, as he used the term
>>"campings" where an American would generally say "campgrounds".
>
>
> She's from St Louis, if her posts are correct.

I agree with Barbara though. It is a weird usage for someone from the USA.