Read this article on Japanese Teachings of World War II to it' own people. Might be
enlightening. Anyone, with any knowledge of the fairest understands that Japan has of
yet come to grip's with it's past ALA the Germans who have.

Lingering distrust of Japan extends textbook row
http://www.csmonitor.com/durable/2001/07/20/p7s2.htm

    > Good one Keith. In our travels around the world, I'm glad we always run
into
    > people with your sense of humor rather than the ones[like some in this thread] who
    > hate the US. We may just be lucky; but in our travels through Europe, the Med, the
    > Caribbean, etc, we have not met even one person that was unfriendly and did not go
    > out of their way to help when we needed
help.
    > Of course we can say the same thing about our travels in the US.
    > --

Agree. Most people I have met in my travels aren't as blatantly Anti-American as you
find in this newsgroup. I always kick myself after I get involved in these tit for
tat discussions with them. Just hard to keep quiet when you hear some much ridiculous
Anti-American crap.

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
    >
    >
    >Read this article on Japanese Teachings of World War II to it' own people. Might be
    >enlightening. Anyone, with any knowledge of the fairest understands that Japan has
    >of yet come to grip's with it's past ALA the Germans who have.

And the Americans who haven't? Your point? Our colonialism, albeit in a new
form, hasn't abated at all in our nation's history. The war with Japan was a
matter of competing colonial interests. I guess you need to understand that
one side being bad doesn't automatically make the other side good, or that
one side being to blame doesn't make the other side blameless.

-Tim

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...

    >Sure how bout that the native Americans were screwing each other and enslaving any
    >weaker tribe that it could exploit long before any white man landed on the U.S..

Ahhh. And I see we've found our resident white supremicist/genocide
apologist. I'd say nice to meet you, but it hardly is.

-Tim

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (The Enigmatic One) wrote:

    > In article <[email protected]>,
    > [email protected] says...
    >
    > >Sure how bout that the native Americans were screwing each other and enslaving any
    > >weaker tribe that it could exploit long before any white man landed on the U.S..
    >
    > Ahhh. And I see we've found our resident white supremicist/genocide
    > apologist. I'd say nice to meet you, but it hardly is.
    >
    >
    > -Tim
    >

You might want to take your own advise... stating one fact is not to the exclusion
of others.

But as you have OK in your headers... it shouldnt be too hard for you to look into
how the plains native americans treated their native american neighbors to their
immediate north.... or for that matter the environment.

jay Wed, Feb 27, 2002 mailto:[email protected]

--

Legend insists that as he finished his abject... Galileo muttered under his breath:
"Nevertheless, it does move."

    > Huh. Really? I was assuming that London, as big as it was, would have a sizable
    > draw of people looking for work. For simlar reasons you
see,
    > say, many ndns in northern US cities like Milwaukee and Minneapolis.

Ireland and Dublin in particular is booming. It is easier to find work now in Dublin
than London I would venture to say (I go to both regularly). There is certainly a
more noticeable labour shortage in Dublin. This is to the extent that there are many
people from the UK who are finding work in Dublin.

Also, if you go to Dublin the contempt that many feel for the English is astonishing
and genuine (more so than the normal hate:love relationship that neigbours enjoy)

    > And the Americans who haven't? Your point? Our colonialism, albeit in a new form,
    > hasn't abated at all in our nation's history. The war with Japan was a matter of
    > competing colonial interests. I guess you need to understand that one side being
    > bad doesn't automatically make the other side good, or that one side being to blame
    > doesn't make the other side blameless.
    >

America, at the time of WWII was not Expansionist, Japan was. America was doing
everything it could to avoid war, Japan wasn't. Key phrases to study to understand
Japanese behavior of the time are:

*Tripartite (three-part) Pact. *What did the Japanese militarists mean when they
spoke of "bringing the eight corners of the world under one roof?" *Greater East Asia
Co-Prosperity Sphere"

Nonetheless, your points are geared more toward the "Spanish American War" which was
fought for pure expansionist/imperialism. However, other man causes of World War II
were specifically "The Treaty of Versailles" and its after effects on Germany and
Japan and the Depression of the late 20's-30's that followed, hence allowing
Militarists, fascists, etc to come to power with ideas of World/Regional Domination.

Nonetheless, we will never agree no matter what each other says so let's drop it
and move on.

In article <[email protected]>, Brian Howell (Office
manager) <[email protected]> writes
    >I would not call them ignorant or uneducated at all, because thinking about it, if
    >they have never traveled abroad or never really studied history why would they
    >know anyway?

Well, they surely should know what exactly the Americans are celebrating their
independence from!

Marie
--
[email protected]

In article <[email protected]>, David Lewis
<[email protected]> wrote:

    > In article <[email protected]>, Brian Howell (Office
    > manager) <[email protected]> writes
    > >I would not call them ignorant or uneducated at all, because thinking about it, if
    > >they have never traveled abroad or never really studied history why would they
    > >know anyway?
    >
    > Well, they surely should know what exactly the Americans are celebrating their
    > independence from!

But certainly you realize that asked the question these probably apocraphal American
tourists would be able to answer it -- they are just on auto pilot and unthinkingly
assume 'july 4 -- oh big traffic problem' without thinking about the international
context. People do stupid things all the time because they don't think. [although
what accounts for the inexplicable British sinks in which hot and cold are not mixed
but enter separately so that even in public places you have to try to clean your
hands in everyone else's bacteria by filling the sink?]

On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 15:26:02 -0600, anonymouse <[email protected]> wrote:

    >just out of curiosity I checked the population of finland...ask jeeves pops up with:
    >
    >Population: 5,175,783 (July 2001 est.)
    >
    >or about the population of metropolitan Houston, Texas.
    >
    >for the whole country.

Are you trying to make some kind of point here? If so, do try again, as you failed
the first time.

--
Ask me for directions.

Proactive Search wrote:
    >
    > > In the early part of the 20th century there was a very strong movement in the US
    > > in favor of colonialism. A great many Americans really wanted to grab Cuba too.
    > > The whole Spanish American war was whipped up by this colonialist frenzy and the
    > > sinking of that boat whose name I can't remember in the harbor of Havana was
    > > almost certainly orchestrated as an excuse for war. America was isolationist so
    > > far as not wanting to get involved in major European wars, because that might
    > > have been more like a fair fight, but they were quite willing to dominate weaker
    > > peoples in the Pacific and Latin America and Spain was an overripe plum at the
    > > time, whose empire looked ready to drop into the great American lap.
    > >
    >
    > Yes, but we are talking about DIFFERENT TIMES and the Main root causes of WWII per
    > Japan. Most industrialized countries (America and Europe) had colonial aspirations
    > in the 19th and early part of the 20th century. However, Devil is advocating that
    > Japan and America fought solely because of America's Colonial aspirations colliding
    > with Japan's which are utterly & completely false.

Hm... I think in response to:

> *Japanese Students are taught in schools that WWII was a necessary
war
> that they were forced to start and that it wasn't their fault.

I wrote the following:

If you think the version taught in American schools is *the right one* you
are about as brainwashed as they are. WWII in the Pacific started with Perry
and the US taking the Philippines, and Japan getting Taiwan and Korea.
Competition for control of SE Asia continued and culminated in WWII.
Basically a war about determining who would colonize SE Asia. Plus lots of
racist under- or overtones *on both sides.* Of course, Pearl Harbor, and
hiroshima/Nagasaki were obth acts of barbarism.

Not quite as simple as the misrepresentation above. Nothing like "solely," except for
those of us who live in a black and white world.

Nothing that justifies the military regime and its excesses, or an alliance
with Germany.

    > Our isolationist policies applied to Japan as did appeasement when they invaded
    > Manchuria and China in the 1930's. Finally that came to an end after Japanese
    > invasion of Southeast Asia and we imposed an Oil Embargo. hence read above in
    > previous emails.

Teddy Roosevelt was isolationist too, eh? Isolationist feelings in the population,
presidents winning elections on an isolationist platform are one thing. A low-key
expansionist policy in the pacific did occur nonetheless.

You can't deny Perry. Surely he was not an independent entrepreneur. You can't deny
the US getting their share of the Chinese cake, way before Japan BTW. You can't deny
that the US acquired a colony in the Philippines. That they managed to get control
of Hawaii.

There is evidence available that shows that the US got quite pissed off when Japan
succeeded at getting their hands on Taiwan and Korea. With the US definitely having
views at least on Taiwan.

And that all of this fits within the framework of a consistent and deliberate policy
is pretty well established.

Trying to deny that this is the historic framework in which WWII in the Pacific
has to be analyzed and understood is as I said at best naive. Sure, if you are
into fairly tales and/or propaganda, and/or if you can't emotionally cope with a
world that's not black and white, it's nice to start the history of the war in
1935 or so...

    > The lack of knowledge regarding basic human history and how people can twist the
    > events is appalling. My whole point re; all this is that it is well known
    > throughout Southeast Asia that Japan still has not come to grip with starting the
    > War and the nasty things it did during the War. These views are WIDELY held
    > throughout America, China, Korea, the Philippines, etc. Having traveled and studied
    > in that part of the world I can definitely vouch for that. Go to your local library
    > and read up. Your History

No one is defending Japan for not coming to grip with the darker aspects of the war,
primarily about what happened in Korea and China, and the Philippines.

But that doesn't mean that the fairy tale that's taught in the US is all that much
better. For instance, that there was quite ugly racism *on both sides* is
well-documented. But you hear all that criticism about Japanese racism against
Koreans and Chinese. Not so much about Japanese racism against Americans, and nothing
about the equally real and equally nasty racism on the American side.

And nothing about the broader geopolitical context of the war. (which BTW is nothing
like revisionist history but generally well-recognized in serious historic work.)

Proactive Search wrote:
    >
    > > >I can't stomach debating with self-proclaimed Revisionist Historians. let's give
    > > >it up...... or I will throw up.
    > >
    > > Oops. Let me translate.
    > >
    > > "I can't understand people that don't swollow the same propaganda I
    > > did. Make them stop, Mommy."
    > >
    > >
    > > -Tim
    >
    > I guess my propaganda comes from American, Canadian, European, and Far Eastern
    > Sources.

Carefully selected to fit your emotions, I am sure .

Proactive Search wrote:
    >
    > Read this article on Japanese Teachings of World War II to it' own people. Might be
    > enlightening. Anyone, with any knowledge of the fairest understands that Japan has
    > of yet come to grip's with it's past ALA the Germans who have.
    >
    > Lingering distrust of Japan extends textbook row
    > http://www.csmonitor.com/durable/2001/07/20/p7s2.htm

Beating a dead horse?

"Miguel Cruz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Proactive Search <[email protected]> wrote:
    > > The first Sino-Japanese War(1894-95) ended in China's defeat. The significance of
    > > this defeat lay in the fact that China lost a
considerable
    > > amount of territory to Japan and it had to open the ports of Sha-shih,
    > > Ch'ung-ch'ing,k Soochow, and the K'ang-chow to Japanese trade. The
treaty
    > > which established these rights was the Treaty of Shimonoseki. Six days later
    > > however, the Triple Intervention secured by Russia, France, and Germany,
    > > subsequently required Japan to restore much to the territory it took from China.
    > > As a result of this intervention these countries began to press China with
    > > demands which gave rise to a scramble for
concessions.
    >
    > You copied this directly out of the Encyclopedia Britannica.
    >
    > Sheesh.

hehe

Well his name is "Proactive Search"

Chris

    >
    > miguel
    > --
    > Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu

"Proactive Search" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    >
    > > Good one Keith. In our travels around the world, I'm glad we always run
    > into
    > > people with your sense of humor rather than the ones[like some in this thread]
    > > who hate the US. We may just be lucky; but in our travels
through
    > > Europe, the Med, the Caribbean, etc, we have not met even one person
that
    > > was unfriendly and did not go out of their way to help when we needed
    > help.
    > > Of course we can say the same thing about our travels in the US.
    > > --
    >
    > Agree. Most people I have met in my travels aren't as blatantly Anti-American as
    > you find in this newsgroup. I always kick myself after I get involved in these tit
    > for tat discussions with them. Just hard to keep
quiet
    > when you hear some much ridiculous Anti-American crap.

I think it is more aimed at Americans as a group rather than the individual. When you
meet an individual, you shouldn't mistreat them because of where they are from. I've
met some nice Americans who remained nice and unannoying over a *long* period of
time. They were in the minority, but that's beside the point By the way, most
American travellers I have met are as nice as anyone else in the short term. I really
only get an anti-US feeling about someone when that person starts acting in a
typically annoying American way (ie. "America has better food than this place"...
"This scenery is nice, but in America..." "The people here are weird compared to back
home"... "It's a cookie dammit!"...) Those types piss me off if they start repeating
these kinds of comments.

Chris