"Douglas W. Hoyt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
    > Or underwhelming::
    > 1) Rothenburg ob der Tauber (sterile)
    > 2) Vienna (dull center, really; decrepit outside the Ring)
    > 3) Berlin (has lost character & soul since the Wall fell)
    > 4) Paris (big rambling French city with bad air)
    > 5) London (overrun, uncomfortable, and expensive)

Thank you for excluding Prague from your rubbish list. I think It's
only city I actually like. Agree with London - very overrun, very
uncomfortable and bloody expensive.

Cheers

grey <[email protected]> wrote in
news:76peou4589slgkfo97038rb-
[email protected]:

    > On Mon, 16 Sep 2002 18:43:21 -0500, "Douglas W. Hoyt"
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>Or underwhelming::
    >>1) Rothenburg ob der Tauber (sterile)
    >>2) Vienna (dull center, really; decrepit outside the Ring)
    >>3) Berlin (has lost character & soul since the Wall fell)
    >>4) Paris (big rambling French city with bad air)
    >>5) London (overrun, uncomfortable, and expensive)
    > After reading this post, I was expecting various posters to come to
    > the rescue of their maligned cities. Am bemused that so few have done
    > so...

These cities don't really need such a defense ...

--
Damit haben Sie kein Glück in der Bundesrepublik
Wir tanzen lieber Tango bei zärtlicher Musik

Keeger wrote:
    > ... As for London, yes it's crowded and
    > expensive, but it's got everything you could want in a city, except
    > sunshine and quiet. I go there at least once every year. And once
    > you've tired of it, you can be in the Cotswolds or Dorset in a few
    > hours.

Samuel Johnson said, "The man who is tired of London is tired of life."

I wish I could get there once a year.

Barbara

"Pan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
m...
    > The last time I was in Florence was 1998. At that time, the tour-bus
    > groups thronged the Duomo, Baptistery, and the Uffizi, but did not get
    > to the Museo dell'Opera del Duomo or the museums in the Palazzo Pitti,
    > nor was the Bargello very crowded. Is it still true that, even in high
    > season, those places are reasonable to visit? What about the
    > Accademia?
    > Best,
    > Michael

I'm not sure about the other places, but I went to the Accademia in June
with a tour group, and it was not very crowded when we were there. This was
late on a Sunday afternoon.
--
briggl
http://www.bestofitaly2001.com Italy
Travelogue

I agree with most of the comments here. I enjoyed Prague the most,
although I can certainly see that city becoming a mess like Paris and
London soon. (too many damn McDonalds as well)...Believe or not the
Old City in Warsaw is beautiful...people are very nice and the food is
great. Too bad the rest of city is an industrial mess. The best part
is that there are next to no Western tourists...nice feeling.

--Neil

Pan <[email protected]> wrote:


    > And require that everyone move to Fiesole? The people in Fiesole
    > wouldn't like that...

People don't move to Fiesole, but to Scandicci (you probably haven't
heard about it, it is not a touristic place), or the places north of
Florence direction Prato. Those who can afford it go to the country.
(For example, I couldn't afford it - not for the money, but because I
often work till late hours).

    > I love Florence, despite its urban problems and the excess of
    > tourists. But I have a question for you:
    > The last time I was in Florence was 1998. At that time, the tour-bus
    > groups thronged the Duomo, Baptistery, and the Uffizi, but did not get
    > to the Museo dell'Opera del Duomo or the museums in the Palazzo Pitti,
    > nor was the Bargello very crowded. Is it still true that, even in high
    > season, those places are reasonable to visit? What about the
    > Accademia?


I don't remember ever finding big crowds in Bargello or Opera del Duomo,
Palazzo Vecchio and even Pitti should be manageable. The lines for
Accademia and Uffizi may be very long, but it would be stupid not to use
the reservation system that permits you to skip the lines.

-- -----------------------------------------------------
Luca Logi - Firenze - Italy e-mail: [email protected]

On Wed, 18 Sep 2002 09:17:14 +0100, "a.spencer3"
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >grey <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:76peou4589slgkfo97038rb-
    >[email protected]    ...
    >> > After reading this post, I was expecting various posters to come to
    >> the rescue of their maligned cities. Am bemused that so few have done
    >> so...
    >Would love to, but can't!
    >London, of course, has to be seen once. (Maybe the opposite to the quote I
    >heard about New York - has to be seen but never for the first time!).
    >But the remarks given to it apply totally.
    >I live only 30 miles out, but haven't been there for years, and don't plan
    >to.

From today's fox news:

Mohammed Abdullah Azam, 32, from Luton, 30 miles north of London, was
arrested Sunday and has been charged under Britain's anti-terrorism
laws, a Scotland Yard spokesman said.

http://www.foxnews.com/stor-
y/0,2933,63468,00.html

Heh. No doubt 30 miles out from London is just a coincidence, but
couldn't resist...
---------------------------
A truly cool book:
The World Is Already Yours
Conscious living in the real world
www.alreadyyours.com (sample
chapter, etc...)

    > Personally I find [Nice} overcrowded, noisy and overpriced. At least in
the summer. I prefer Menton.

I think you listed at least half of the reasons I like Nice. I went to
Menton once and I had to keep slapping myself to stay awake. This reminds
me of the poem that would argue with both of us:

"Menton's dowdy.
Monte's brass.
Nice is rowdy.
Cannes is class!"

    > Some trolls are more obvious than others, I guess.

Of course I was "trolling" for responses in that sense. But I'm a regular
poster on rec.travel.europe and have been for years, mostly with advice
about places I've been or ways to find information in response to posters'
requests. I posted the original post as a bit of fun, and also because
there was a similar thread in rec.travel.usa-canada about North American
cities, and I realized that these were places that now seem to me (after
having visited at least twice, sometimes far more frequently, as
increasingly unrewarding, or enervating. It was a sincere post--not just
troll bait! doug hoyt

I have lived in a number of cities in my home country of England (home town Bristol) and recently overseas. For the past 2 years Sydney, having moved there from London (also 2 years). Next stop is Prague for a few years with my Czech wife, who I met in a bar in Prague when I was working in Prague for a number of months a few years back.

London is a wonderful place to live if you are young, single and cashed up. Cross off any one from this list and it can be a hell hole.

Sydney is far more civilised, cleaner, newer and an easier place to live. It lacks the variety of London but we prefer it. Main problem with Sydney is that its on planet mars.

Our favourite cities are Prague and Zurich (where my wife lived for a few years). Czechs are actually wonderful, gentle and funloving people when you get to know them - I should know, I married one and now find myself to be a member of a huge Czech family.

You can not possibly comment on a city unless you live there, experience everything it has to offer and get to know the locals. Do not be ignorant of your own ignorance. At the risk of offending, the biggest problem with London, Sydney, Prague is that they are awash with gawping, ignorant and complaining Americans who demand immediate and easy satisfaction of all of their varied and bottomless needs.

grey wrote:

    >You were lucky. Usually it's hot and humid in July.

Perhaps. I actually had a to buy a sweatshirt. Just try finding one
(well, anything) in Salzburg w/o Motzart's mug on it.

    >Didn't like the pedestrian shopping districts or take a cruise on the
    >river?

The shopping area was, well, a shopping area. I really like to look
at architecture, not cameras and shoes, when I'm traveling and in
Cologne there's pretty much only the Cathedral, the area along the
Rhine and the few bits of Roman walls.

    >>3) Amsterdam. Yeah, it's safe, but I found it to be seedy. I was
    >> constantly bothered by dirty junkies looking to buy or sell drugs.
    >> The city itself is pretty, but I've never felt the desire to return.
    >> Next time, I will go to other Dutch cities.
    >Must say you sound pretty intolerant. Easy to piss you off?

Wow, I said "I found it to be seedy". Quite a leap to "intolerant",
don't you think? I apologize to any junkies who were offended by my
"dirty" remark. In future I will use a more sensitive term,
"hygienically challenged" perhaps.

Paul

Barbara Vaughan wrote:

    >Samuel Johnson said, "The man who is tired of London is tired of life."
    >I wish I could get there once a year.
    >Barbara

It's hard not to when you live on the east coast of the US. The fares
between October and March are hard to turn down.

    > At the risk of offending, the biggest
    > problem with London, Sydney, Prague is that they are awash with gawping,
    > ignorant and complaining Americans who demand immediate and easy
    > satisfaction of all of their varied and bottomless needs.

True--but at least Prague complies pretty readily.

On Wed, 18 Sep 2002 22:28:12 +0200, [email protected] (Luca Logi) wrote:

    >Pan wrote:
    >> And require that everyone move to Fiesole? The people in Fiesole
    >> wouldn't like that...
    >People don't move to Fiesole, but to Scandicci (you probably haven't
    >heard about it,

You're right.

    > it is not a touristic place), or the places north of
    > Florence direction Prato. Those who can afford it go to the country.
    > (For example, I couldn't afford it - not for the money, but because I
    > often work till late hours).

I understand.

    >> I love Florence, despite its urban problems and the excess of
    >> tourists. But I have a question for you:
    >> The last time I was in Florence was 1998. At that time, the tour-bus
    >> groups thronged the Duomo, Baptistery, and the Uffizi, but did not get
    >> to the Museo dell'Opera del Duomo or the museums in the Palazzo Pitti,
    >> nor was the Bargello very crowded. Is it still true that, even in high
    >> season, those places are reasonable to visit? What about the
    >> Accademia?
    >I don't remember ever finding big crowds in Bargello or Opera del Duomo,
    >Palazzo Vecchio and even Pitti should be manageable. The lines for
    >Accademia and Uffizi may be very long, but it would be stupid not to use
    >the reservation system that permits you to skip the lines.

Unfortunately, no such reservation system exists for the Duomo or
Baptistery, I would think. I'm glad I saw their insides in 1991 and
1994. I may never see them again.

Best,

Michael

Pan wrote:


    > Unfortunately, no such reservation system exists for the Duomo or
    > Baptistery, I would think. I'm glad I saw their insides in 1991 and
    > 1994. I may never see them again.


It is extremely simple to see the Duomo without queueing: you simply
attend a Mass (there is an entrance for worshippers on the right side).
Of course I give you this advice in the hope nobody will cheat, just to
remember that a Cathedral isn't a museum...

-- -----------------------------------------------------
Luca Logi - Firenze - Italy e-mail: [email protected]