On Tue, 17 Sep 2002 23:11:12 GMT, Keeger <[email protected]> wrote:

    >1) Salzburg. I found it more tourist-oriented than Florence and worse
    > than that it was cold, dark and damp in July. (this was 2 or 3 years
    > ago).

You were lucky. Usually it's hot and humid in July.

    >2) Cologne. The cathedral is amazing, and there are many good
    > museums, but it's pretty ugly otherwise.

Didn't like the pedestrian shopping districts or take a cruise on the
river?

    >3) Amsterdam. Yeah, it's safe, but I found it to be seedy. I was
    > constantly bothered by dirty junkies looking to buy or sell drugs.
    > The city itself is pretty, but I've never felt the desire to return.
    > Next time, I will go to other Dutch cities.

Must say you sound pretty intolerant. Easy to piss you off?

    >As for the original list, I've always liked Vienna and would recommend
    >it to just about anyone. As for London, yes it's crowded and
    >expensive, but it's got everything you could want in a city, except
    >sunshine and quiet. I go there at least once every year. And once
    >you've tired of it, you can be in the Cotswolds or Dorset in a few
    >hours.

Glad to hear you like a few places. Can't say I agree with your choice
of places to dislike, though.
---------------------------
A truly cool book:
The World Is Already Yours
Conscious living in the real world
www.alreadyyours.com (sample
chapter, etc...)

On Tue, 17 Sep 2002 13:46:54 +0200, [email protected] (Luca Logi) wrote:

    >Pan <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> Florence is bigger and has more of the usual urban problems of
    >> pollution and grime, but what exactly is overrated about it? Tell me
    >> you didn't like the view from Piazzale Michelangelo.
    >> I'm beginning to see that, especially given the list that started this
    >> thread, every fantastic city in Europe will appear in this thread.
    >> People who don't like big cities should stay away from them and
    >> ameliorate their overcrowding problems.
    >Florence is a dump, but for reasons the tourist will never understand.
    >Let us be frank, the first pass to making Florence a livable city would
    >be suppressing all the tourists.

Do you think a tourist can't notice when a city is overrun by
tourists?

    > The second, however, would be
    > suppressing half of the florentines :-)

Third would be eliminating all vehicular traffic from a larger area in
the Centro Storico than is currently the case.

Best,

Michael

On Tue, 17 Sep 2002 13:24:27 +0100, "a.spencer3"
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >Pan <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:[email protected]
    >    ...
    >> The core of Paris is Ile de la Cite', first of all. I question why
    >> you're thinking of peripheral areas of Paris as its core.
    >I'm fully aware of that! But ask most tourists what they want to see first

That's their problem if they don't consider Notre Dame to be a more
important sight than the ones you mentioned.

    >and the city won't suffer from your disapproval and absence.
    >Ouch! Why do you need to get sarky?

No offense, friend. I just speak the truth. Do I not?

Best,

Michael

Pan <[email protected]> wrote:


    > Third would be eliminating all vehicular traffic from a larger area in
    > the Centro Storico than is currently the case.


...and in order to suppress the traffic, you would had to suppress the
residents...


-- -----------------------------------------------------
Luca Logi - Firenze - Italy e-mail: [email protected]

a,spencer3:

How much reconstruction is hard to tell; likewise with the many
fortresses in Wales, etc.

To appreciate Carcasonne, one has to be very interested in medieval
warfare. To that person it has all the characteristics to reproduce in
one's mind that interest I mentioned.

Otherwise I wouldn't recommend spending the time or effort. The food in
the restaurants were very average and expensive. The <cassoulet>, which
is the regional specialty, was terrible.







The palest ink is better than the best memory. --Chinese proverb
There is no end to collecting books.
--Book of Ecclesiastes
To three possessions shalt thou look: Acquire a field, a friend, a
book.
--Samuel haNagid, Vizier to the King of Granada

On Tue, 17 Sep 2002 17:04:41 GMT, poldy <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Remember that under Mitterand, the Grands Travaux renovated several
    >monuments and built new ones. Notre Dame is undergoing a renovation
    >which was already in progress in '99 and this past summer, had not yet
    >finished. Beaubourg also had a major renovation in the past couple of
    >years.

But the Beaubourg will always look like it's under construction.
[laugh]

I was really impressed by the gorgeous restoration done on the Opera.
It really is a gleaming jewel now.

    >If you look along the river, you see a lot of boom cranes rising above
    >the city. Constant renovation seems to be at work.
    >Don't know about Italy but the French know where their tourist dollars
    >should be spent.

They are also great and sensitive restorers who don't skin paintings.
Don't get me wrong: I love Italy, and I actually prefer Italy to
France, on the whole, but I feel less like that after my last trip to
France. Burgundy and the Loire Valley are wonderful areas and pale
next to Tuscany but not much else in Italy.

Best,

Michael

On Tue, 17 Sep 2002 17:49:49 -0500, "Douglas W. Hoyt"
<[email protected]> wrote:

[snip]
    >I think Nice must be the most relaxing big city on earth. All those
    >pastels, and the miles of waves pounding at the stony beach, and the easy
    >daytrips, and the good food, and the incredibly reasonable hotels, and the
    >buzz and murmur of thousands of relaxed happy people strolling at night.
[snip]

They cleaned up the slums and solved the unemployment problems in the
last few years, and crime isn't a menace in any part of town, plus
interethnic relations are all hunky-dory? If so, know that this was
not always the case.

Michael

Douglas W. Hoyt wrote:

    >But there's a fine pub directly across the street from the Hofbrauhaus that
    >serves magnificent Ayinger beers on tap. You can sit outdoors there and
    >watch the minions throng in and bzw. lurch out of the Hofbrauhaus.

There are a couple of nice bars, restaurants and beer halls in that
neighborhood.

    >By the
    >way, about 30 years ago I had heard that the way to pilfer mugs from the
    >HBHaus was [...]

I never really saw a challenge in stealing beer steins or glasses.
When I need some, I simply call my business partners at Germany's
leading beer stein and glass manufacturer and ask them if they could
send me another sixpack or two as free samples :-)

Jens

On Wed, 18 Sep 2002 08:42:02 +0200, [email protected] (Luca Logi) wrote:

    >Pan <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> Third would be eliminating all vehicular traffic from a larger area in
    >> the Centro Storico than is currently the case.
    >...and in order to suppress the traffic, you would had to suppress the
    >residents...

And require that everyone move to Fiesole? The people in Fiesole
wouldn't like that...

I love Florence, despite its urban problems and the excess of
tourists. But I have a question for you:

The last time I was in Florence was 1998. At that time, the tour-bus
groups thronged the Duomo, Baptistery, and the Uffizi, but did not get
to the Museo dell'Opera del Duomo or the museums in the Palazzo Pitti,
nor was the Bargello very crowded. Is it still true that, even in high
season, those places are reasonable to visit? What about the
Accademia?

Best,

Michael

grey <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:76peou4589slgkfo97038rb6-
[email protected]...
    > > After reading this post, I was expecting various posters to come to
    > the rescue of their maligned cities. Am bemused that so few have done
    > so...
Would love to, but can't!
London, of course, has to be seen once. (Maybe the opposite to the quote I
heard about New York - has to be seen but never for the first time!).
But the remarks given to it apply totally.
I live only 30 miles out, but haven't been there for years, and don't plan
to.

Surreyman

Pan <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > >and the city won't suffer from your disapproval and absence.
    > >>
    > >Ouch! Why do you need to get sarky?
    > No offense, friend. I just speak the truth. Do I not?
Well then, I suppose I could also say it won't gain by your presence! ....
    :-))

Surreyman

On Wed, 18 Sep 2002 09:26:48 +0100, "a.spencer3"
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >Pan <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:[email protected]
    >    ...
    >> >and the city won't suffer from your disapproval and absence.
    >> >>
    >> >Ouch! Why do you need to get sarky?
    >> No offense, friend. I just speak the truth. Do I not?
    >Well then, I suppose I could also say it won't gain by your presence! ....
    >:-))

That's probably true, as well. :-)

Best,

Michael

"Lennart Petersen" <[email protected]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:[email protected]
elia.net...
    > "Tim Challenger" <[email protected]> skrev i meddelandet
    > news:3d86cf4-
    > [email protected]    ...
    > > > > 2) Vienna (dull center, really; decrepit outside the Ring)
    > > > Pehaps but still a good atmosphere and nice people.
    > >
    > > You must be the only person that thinks that the Viennese are nice.
You're
    > > not one yourself are you ?
    > > Tim.
    > No ,but I've always been well treated in Vienna.
    > And I'm definitely not the only person returning frequently to Vienna.
    > L.P
It's probably alright if you're a tourist. The people have a reputation for
being unfreindly and snobby. That applies to both "types" of commonly
recognised Viennese. A reputation I only found out about after having lived
there and having made my own up. Personally I only go there now if I have to
go on a course or get something from the Naschmarkt which I can't get at
home (which, thankfully is getting more infrequent).
Tim.

    > [snip]
    > >I think Nice must be the most relaxing big city on earth. All those
    > >pastels, and the miles of waves pounding at the stony beach, and the easy
    > >daytrips, and the good food, and the incredibly reasonable hotels, and
the
    > >buzz and murmur of thousands of relaxed happy people strolling at night.
    > [snip]

All those thousands of posing bodies jostling for postion on the few metres
of pebble beach. All those hundreds of cars jammed onto the seafront road,
tooting and blasting their stereos at full blast. All those mopeds and
scooters with tuned exhaust pipes wheeleing and revving up in the back
streets. Entertaining, maybe. Relaxing? Not for me.

Pop. just under 350000. How big does a place have to be for it to qualify
for the title "big city" ?
I'd call it a large provincial town, or small city at best.
Personally I find it overcrowded, noisy and overpriced. At least in the
summer. I prefer Menton.

">One time my wife had our youngest in a stroller waiting for a tram into
the Ring and when it stopped, two locals
    > jumped out and picked up the stoller and carried it into the tram.

Once in 15 months ? Not good. Perhaps I've been spoilt by other places.
You'll probably find they were visiting from out of town ;-)

    > We lived in Grinzing and there are more good heurigers there than just the
big
    > tourist ones. Ones the locals actually go to, especially starting in
October
    > when most tourists are gone.
I know Grinzing a bit. There are (or were, I haven't been for some time)
some nice places - I can normally tell the difference between tourist traps
and "real" local places. There are some nice places in Sievering.


    > > > > 2) Vienna (dull center, really; decrepit outside the Ring)
    > > > Pehaps but still a good atmosphere and nice people.
    > >
    > > You must be the only person that thinks that the Viennese are nice.
You're
    > > not one yourself are you ?
    > > Tim.