It would be interesting to see what they say if you came in with the
application form from the Italian Embassy site referred to by a previous
poster. I suspect that the response would be "Oh! That's what you
want. Why didn't you say so." Thus claiming that if you had only been
clear things would have been OK.

The site

http://www.italyemb.org/ElectiveResidenceVisa.htm

is quite clear about what you need to do.

Frank Matthews

janet lagouranis wrote:
    > I went to the consulate twice, they were not helpful at all. Thanks.
    > I am leaving on May 27th.
    >
    > "Judith Umbria" wrote in message news:...
    >
    >>"janet lagouranis" wrote in message
    >>news:[email protected]...
    >>>I have done all of this and was told the Residence Visa was for
    >>>Italian onlyin order to give them the possibility to go to Italy and
    >>>claim their Italian citizenship. This is a quote from the e-mail they
    >>>sent me.
    >>This will be a huge surprise to all the British, German, Australian and
    >>American expats who live here on residency permits. Of course the British
    >>and Germans don't have to prove much and can get work permits.
    >>I found I couldn't do a thing online, they didn't even answer my email
    >>requests, but it did give me the list of what I needed to present with their
    >>form.
    >

You can't compare the EU/EEA/Swiss residence permit with any other kind. The
ones given to passport holders of those countries and to their family
members are established by EU law and have no relation to what Italy chooses
to do for third country nationals (with the sole exception of TCN employees
of EU country firms sent to Italy on TDY.


    > I went to the consulate twice, they were not helpful at all. Thanks.
    > I am leaving on May 27th.
    >
    > "Judith Umbria" wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> "janet lagouranis" wrote in message
    >> news:[email protected]...
    >>> I have done all of this and was told the Residence Visa was for
    >>> Italian onlyin order to give them the possibility to go to Italy and
    >>> claim their Italian citizenship. This is a quote from the e-mail they
    >>> sent me.
    >>
    >> This will be a huge surprise to all the British, German, Australian and
    >> American expats who live here on residency permits. Of course the British
    >> and Germans don't have to prove much and can get work permits.
    >> I found I couldn't do a thing online, they didn't even answer my email
    >> requests, but it did give me the list of what I needed to present with their
    >> form.

Axqi Rqvst wrote in message news:...
    > You can't compare the EU/EEA/Swiss residence permit with any other kind. The
    > ones given to passport holders of those countries and to their family
    > members are established by EU law and have no relation to what Italy chooses
    > to do for third country nationals (with the sole exception of TCN employees
    > of EU country firms sent to Italy on TDY.
    >
    >
    > > I went to the consulate twice, they were not helpful at all. Thanks.
    > > I am leaving on May 27th.
    > >
    > > "Judith Umbria" wrote in message
    > > news:...
    > >> "janet lagouranis" wrote in message
    > >> news:[email protected]...
    > >>> I have done all of this and was told the Residence Visa was for
    > >>> Italian onlyin order to give them the possibility to go to Italy and
    > >>> claim their Italian citizenship. This is a quote from the e-mail they
    > >>> sent me.

I appreciate all the suggestions I have received here but I have done
all of them with no success. The problem started when I showed the
consulate papers from my son in law (American citizen stationed in
Naples) stating he would be financial responsible, etc. for me while
in Italy. They then told me I needed to apply for a family visa
(family member of a non-citizen) and needed a nulla osta from the
central police in Naples. My son in law tried to obtain this with the
help of fellow officers in the Italian Air Force and was told by the
police that it would be taken care of after my arrival. Soooo, since
I didn't get the nulla visa I went back to the Italian consulate in
Chicago and again requested I apply for the residence visa (which is
what I did in the first place before showing them the papers from my
son-in-law). That was when they told me no.
    > >>
    > >> This will be a huge surprise to all the British, German, Australian and
    > >> American expats who live here on residency permits. Of course the British
    > >> and Germans don't have to prove much and can get work permits.
    > >> I found I couldn't do a thing online, they didn't even answer my email
    > >> requests, but it did give me the list of what I needed to present with their
    > >> form.

On 18/04/03 00:13, in article
[email protected], "janet lagouranis"
wrote:

    > I appreciate all the suggestions I have received here but I have done
    > all of them with no success. The problem started when I showed the
    > consulate papers from my son in law (American citizen stationed in
    > Naples) stating he would be financial responsible, etc. for me while
    > in Italy. They then told me I needed to apply for a family visa
    > (family member of a non-citizen) and needed a nulla osta from the
    > central police in Naples. My son in law tried to obtain this with the
    > help of fellow officers in the Italian Air Force and was told by the
    > police that it would be taken care of after my arrival. Soooo, since
    > I didn't get the nulla visa I went back to the Italian consulate in
    > Chicago and again requested I apply for the residence visa (which is
    > what I did in the first place before showing them the papers from my
    > son-in-law). That was when they told me no.

You have to recognize that you are seeking a special status that depends
itself on a treaty-based status. It is not the Italian Government that
issues SOFA permits, but the visa office at the base.

If you want to go through proper channels and have proper documents, and if
the Chicago consular officer is giving you the runaround, then your next
step is to go to his boss, who will almost certainly be the head of consular
section at the Italian Embassy in Washington.

You have not said whether you contacted, directly or indirectly, the visa
and the JAG offices at the base.

I am well aware that if you go to Italy without a visa you risk having to
return to the USA to regularize your status after three (or more likely six)
months. Indeed, years ago, I had similar problems with Belgium (I resolved
it by calling at the dean of the law school where I was, and he called his
friend and contact at the Ministry, who put my folder at the bottom of the
pile and promised nobody would get to it for a year ... by which time I
would no longer be living there. (Actually my problem was resolved more
permanently last year by a new EU treaty, but that doesn't help you.)

If the Embassy doesn't or can't help, then you need (unfortunately) to have
your sponsor get a letter from the Ministry of the Interior setting forth
what kind of visa you do need, and what papers you need to supply. It is not
some forlorn consular officer in Chicago who makes the rules, it is Rome.
The consul only follows orders, and if he misconceives them then you have to
set him straight.

If Naples is refusing the nulla osta, and if the consulate says you need it,
that presumes that Naples is refusing to acknowledge the authority of the
consulate's written instructions. Then again you have to go to the office
that supervises the Naples police, and complain and get them ordered to
issue it.

I cannot believe that the Base has not encountered this before. I would not
be surprised if language is part of the problem. Years ago I went to the
French consul in London to get a visa for my Filipina nanny to visit her
boyfriend in France. She had been turned down and told to "go back to Manila
to get it". I argued with the consul for ten minutes, saying I was going
there on official business, and she was needed to watch my children. After
ten minutes he said, "OK, I'm going to issue it. But only because you speak
French."

Now of what relevance was it that I did, or didn't, speak Frenchy?

P.S., the nanny is now married to that boyfriend, a French engineer, and has
a French passport herself and two French children.

On 4/17/03 6:33 PM, in article [email protected],
"Emilia" wrote:

    > Have you tried calling the American Consulate in Italy?
    >

The American Embassy consular section (which is what I suppose you meant)
does not issue visas or residence permits for Italy. They issue visas for
travel to the USA.

The inquirer seeks status attached to that of her son-in-law, who has Status
of Forces (NATO) status. Unless she is declared a dependent of the
son-in-law, she needs to cross boundaries. Hence the complexity.

Judith Umbria wrote:
    > "greg byshenk" wrote:

    > > A residence permit is not necessarily the same as a permit for _permanent_
    > > residence. My first Dutch residence permit was for one year, my current
    > > is for four years. Indeed, in many cases one cannot even request an
    > > unlimited residence permit until after one has already been resident for
    > > some number of years. A residence permit is merely a permit allowing one
    > > to reside in a country for longer than the 90 days allowed as a "tourist".

    > Confusion over two things. The visa is open-ended and that is what you get
    > in your home country. The Permesso di Soggiorno is what you apply for using
    > the visa within 8 days of arrival at the Polizia di Stato. My first one was
    > good for 1 year, second good for 2 and I hear this next one will last 4
    > years.

Perhaps things are different in Italy than in the Netherlands (no doubt
they are in some respects), and perhaps I am misunderstanding, but the
above doesn't make sense to me.

Unless I am very much mistaken, the person asking the original question
is a US citizen, and therefore requires _no_ "visa" (requested prior to
travel in one's home country) to enter Italy. The problem is that the
standard visa issued on entry will be a tourist visa that is not
sufficient for her needs.

But what doesn't make sense to me is the idea of an "open-ended" visa
that is worthless without a Permesso di Soggiorno. How can a decision
be made to give an open-ended visa without a determination being made
that one will be eligible for a Permesso?


--
greg byshenk - [email protected] - Leiden, NL
hate spam?

Akbar Rqvst wrote in
news:BAC5FB0E.10A9%[email protected]:

    > On 4/17/03 6:33 PM, in article [email protected],
    > "Emilia" wrote:
    >
    >> Have you tried calling the American Consulate in Italy?
    >>
    >
    > The American Embassy consular section (which is what I suppose you
    > meant) does not issue visas or residence permits for Italy. They issue
    > visas for travel to the USA.
    >
    > The inquirer seeks status attached to that of her son-in-law, who has
    > Status of Forces (NATO) status. Unless she is declared a dependent of
    > the son-in-law, she needs to cross boundaries. Hence the complexity.
    >

Yes, I'm very well aware they don't issue visas but they will know what
can be done. It is easier to get the information from someone who speaks
your language and who lives in the country in question.

Emilia wrote in message news:...


    > Yes, I'm very well aware they don't issue visas but they will know what
    > can be done. It is easier to get the information from someone who speaks
    > your language and who lives in the country in question.

They won't know, and will refer her to the Base where her military
sponsor is stationed, or to the Italian government which will have her
running in circles all over again. Consular sections have few dealings
with US military; even applications for issuance of ppts is delegated
to the military for transmission to the consular officer.

greg byshenk wrote:
    >
    > Judith Umbria wrote:
    > > "greg byshenk" wrote:
    >
    > > > A residence permit is not necessarily the same as a permit for _permanent_
    > > > residence. My first Dutch residence permit was for one year, my current
    > > > is for four years. Indeed, in many cases one cannot even request an
    > > > unlimited residence permit until after one has already been resident for
    > > > some number of years. A residence permit is merely a permit allowing one
    > > > to reside in a country for longer than the 90 days allowed as a "tourist".
    >
    > > Confusion over two things. The visa is open-ended and that is what you get
    > > in your home country. The Permesso di Soggiorno is what you apply for using
    > > the visa within 8 days of arrival at the Polizia di Stato. My first one was
    > > good for 1 year, second good for 2 and I hear this next one will last 4
    > > years.
    >
    > Perhaps things are different in Italy than in the Netherlands (no doubt
    > they are in some respects), and perhaps I am misunderstanding, but the
    > above doesn't make sense to me.
    >
    > Unless I am very much mistaken, the person asking the original question
    > is a US citizen, and therefore requires _no_ "visa" (requested prior to
    > travel in one's home country) to enter Italy. The problem is that the
    > standard visa issued on entry will be a tourist visa that is not
    > sufficient for her needs.
    >
    > But what doesn't make sense to me is the idea of an "open-ended" visa
    > that is worthless without a Permesso di Soggiorno. How can a decision
    > be made to give an open-ended visa without a determination being made
    > that one will be eligible for a Permesso?

When I married an Italian I was granted a visa "for family reasons" that
allowed me to enter Italy for a stay longer than 90 days (actually 91
days was stamped on the visa), because I was in a category that normally
would be granted a permesso di soggiorno (spouse, child or other close
relative of someone with a valid permesso di soggiorno). However, this
visa carried with it the obligation to immediately request a permesso di
soggiorno on arrival in Italy. I'm sure this is what Judith is referring
to. Since 91 days was stamped on my visa, it wasn't really open-ended
however. The other sort of visa of this type mentioned earlier in the
thread is intended for people who are deemed to have a valid claim for
Italian citizenship based on the citizenship of their parents.

I lived in the Netherlands for a year in 1986. Perhaps things were
different then, but I was not given a visa stamp. I had a temporary work
permit for six months, and based on that was able to claim residence (I
suppose for the same term, although my memory isn't clear on this.) In
any case, the procedure was different from that in Italy, but the
situation was also different.

Barbara

Barbara Vaughan wrote:
    > greg byshenk wrote:

    > > But what doesn't make sense to me is the idea of an "open-ended" visa
    > > that is worthless without a Permesso di Soggiorno. How can a decision
    > > be made to give an open-ended visa without a determination being made
    > > that one will be eligible for a Permesso?

    > When I married an Italian I was granted a visa "for family reasons" that
    > allowed me to enter Italy for a stay longer than 90 days (actually 91
    > days was stamped on the visa), because I was in a category that normally
    > would be granted a permesso di soggiorno (spouse, child or other close
    > relative of someone with a valid permesso di soggiorno). However, this
    > visa carried with it the obligation to immediately request a permesso di
    > soggiorno on arrival in Italy. I'm sure this is what Judith is referring
    > to. Since 91 days was stamped on my visa, it wasn't really open-ended
    > however. The other sort of visa of this type mentioned earlier in the
    > thread is intended for people who are deemed to have a valid claim for
    > Italian citizenship based on the citizenship of their parents.

But... if it is only for 91 days, then it seems rather pointless. Given
that the Permesso is what is important, why not merely enter normally, with
a "tourist visa" (merely a stamp in one's passport on arrival, if one is a
US citizen), and then request a Permesso? Is there some rule that you
cannot request a Permesso unless you enter on a specific type of visa?


    > I lived in the Netherlands for a year in 1986. Perhaps things were
    > different then, but I was not given a visa stamp. I had a temporary work
    > permit for six months, and based on that was able to claim residence (I
    > suppose for the same term, although my memory isn't clear on this.) In
    > any case, the procedure was different from that in Italy, but the
    > situation was also different.

Unless there is some special rule regarding entry and Permesso, it would
seem that things are similar. As a US citizen, no special visa is
required to enter the Netherlands. But, in order to stay for more than
90 days, a 'verblijfsvergunning' (residence permit) is required. And, if
one's residence is based on temporary work, then the residence permit will
normally be for the duration of one's employment contract / work permit.


--
greg byshenk - [email protected] - Leiden, NL
hate spam?

greg byshenk wrote:
    >
    > Barbara Vaughan wrote:
    > > greg byshenk wrote:
    >
    > > > But what doesn't make sense to me is the idea of an "open-ended" visa
    > > > that is worthless without a Permesso di Soggiorno. How can a decision
    > > > be made to give an open-ended visa without a determination being made
    > > > that one will be eligible for a Permesso?
    >
    > > When I married an Italian I was granted a visa "for family reasons" that
    > > allowed me to enter Italy for a stay longer than 90 days (actually 91
    > > days was stamped on the visa), because I was in a category that normally
    > > would be granted a permesso di soggiorno (spouse, child or other close
    > > relative of someone with a valid permesso di soggiorno). However, this
    > > visa carried with it the obligation to immediately request a permesso di
    > > soggiorno on arrival in Italy. I'm sure this is what Judith is referring
    > > to. Since 91 days was stamped on my visa, it wasn't really open-ended
    > > however. The other sort of visa of this type mentioned earlier in the
    > > thread is intended for people who are deemed to have a valid claim for
    > > Italian citizenship based on the citizenship of their parents.
    >
    > But... if it is only for 91 days, then it seems rather pointless. Given
    > that the Permesso is what is important, why not merely enter normally, with
    > a "tourist visa" (merely a stamp in one's passport on arrival, if one is a
    > US citizen), and then request a Permesso? Is there some rule that you
    > cannot request a Permesso unless you enter on a specific type of visa?

I think that was the point. I followed the exact procedure given to me
by the consulate. When I saw the 91-day visa stamp, my reaction was the
same as yours, especially since it took three days and a lot of running
around after our wedding to get together all the paperwork so I could
leave for Italy. However, the police office that processes requests for
the permesso di soggiorno seemed to need
to see the visa stamp. In fact, a number of the lines on my permesso
make reference to it: when and where it was issued, the reason it was
granted (family reasons), and when it expired.

Barbara

Barbara Vaughan wrote:
    > greg byshenk wrote:

    > > But... if it is only for 91 days, then it seems rather pointless. Given
    > > that the Permesso is what is important, why not merely enter normally, with
    > > a "tourist visa" (merely a stamp in one's passport on arrival, if one is a
    > > US citizen), and then request a Permesso? Is there some rule that you
    > > cannot request a Permesso unless you enter on a specific type of visa?

    > I think that was the point. I followed the exact procedure given to me
    > by the consulate. When I saw the 91-day visa stamp, my reaction was the
    > same as yours, especially since it took three days and a lot of running
    > around after our wedding to get together all the paperwork so I could
    > leave for Italy. However, the police office that processes requests for
    > the permesso di soggiorno seemed to need
    > to see the visa stamp. In fact, a number of the lines on my permesso
    > make reference to it: when and where it was issued, the reason it was
    > granted (family reasons), and when it expired.

Ok, that makes a certain sort of sense.


--
greg byshenk - [email protected] - Leiden, NL
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