In article ,
[email protected] (Miguel Cruz) wrote:

    > Jesper Lauridsen wrote:
    > > [email protected] (P J Wallace) wrote:
    > >> Would I be right in thinking this guy was also keeping a meticulous
    > >> tally of who ordered what in every restaurant, who paid out more on
    > >> petrol, and so on?
    > >
    > > What's wrong with that? I do that everytime I travel with a group
    > > of friends.
    >
    > Have those groups grown smaller over the years?
    >
    > miguel


I take your point, but it has also been my experience that those who
make the most fuss about keeping track tend to be the moochers.

LoL!

IME there is always someone in a travelling group whose insists on
totting-up every cent and expects their expediture to be total/n where
n is the number of people. Yawn...

I've seen this descend into arguments at the restaurant table over who
had what starter;who drank which wine and how much etc etc etc. It
really takes the gloss off the evening. I've even witnessed some
people insisting on half portions of things or sharing portions
(purely to save money).

The pettiness of all this far exceeds the financial tolerance (ie plus
or minus _exactly_ what was incurred) IMO. This is of course as long
as everyone is being reasonable in their consumption relative to
others ;-)

When this bean-counting behaviour is carried on over an extended
period it becomes tiresome , and I'm sure it actually provokes the
arguments....

Dave


[email protected] (Miguel Cruz) wrote in message news:...
    > Jesper Lauridsen wrote:
    > > [email protected] (P J Wallace) wrote:
    > >> Would I be right in thinking this guy was also keeping a meticulous
    > >> tally of who ordered what in every restaurant, who paid out more on
    > >> petrol, and so on?
    > >
    > > What's wrong with that? I do that everytime I travel with a group
    > > of friends.
    >
    > Have those groups grown smaller over the years?
    >
    > miguel

Jesper Lauridsen wrote:
    > [email protected] (P J Wallace) wrote:
    >> Would I be right in thinking this guy was also keeping a meticulous tally
    >> of who ordered what in every restaurant, who paid out more on petrol, and
    >> so on?
    > What's wrong with that? I do that everytime I travel with a group
    > of friends.

As a non-sarcastic alternative response...

Whenever I've gone traveling with people for longer than a week or so, we've
agreed to just make sure that by the end of the trip, we've each withdrawn
the same amount from the ATM. During the trip, we take turns withdrawing
money. Whoever got the money out provides cash allowances to the others as
if they were children, and pays for hotels, meals together, etc. People are
allowed to use their allowances for anything except expensive souvenirs or
gifts - for those, they have to pay by credit card or make an independent
withdrawal.

Works fabulously and has never once led to any arguments or even mildly
uncomfortable moments.

I imagine it could be a problem with extreme skinflints or people given to
egregious profligacy, but I am guessing they'd be difficult to travel with
for other reasons anyway.

miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu
Latest addition: 80 photos from Guatemala

I agree and the booking couple's stance would have been similar to
mine in such circumstances. The couple that booked may have been so
insulted by the lack of appreciation, that they may just be making a
point,even to the point of taking the better room on principle.

Another possibility is that the booking couple would have like to have
been offered the better room to reflect their efforts, only to
politely refuse in deference to the other visitors. It's a strange
dance but quite common in England and other such places (inc rest GB!)
where there is a great tradition of manners. In many cases it has
little to do with what's at stake.
Dave


    > It seems possible here that the bad mannered ones here could be Colleen
    > and her boyfriend. Perhaps your friend was shocked that you so little
    > appreciated his efforts that you weren't even prepared to offer him the
    > nicer room.
    >
    > I've organised weekends away for 4 people. When the other couple just
    > said "thanks for making this happen", I was really pleased.
    >
    > Of course, your friend may just be an arsehole, but other explanations
    > are possible.
    >
    > joan
    >
    > ps: I'm not British.

In this case it appears to be the booker's "gift" to be offered to the
other party, both in principle and probably legally. Therefore I agree
with you. The other couple were presumptuous and rude.
Dave

    >
    > Anyone who presumes to decide what gift they deserve from someone else is
    > being rude, in my opinion.

David wrote:
    >
    > LoL!
    >
    > IME there is always someone in a travelling group whose insists on
    > totting-up every cent and expects their expediture to be total/n where
    > n is the number of people. Yawn...
    >
    > I've seen this descend into arguments at the restaurant table over who
    > had what starter;who drank which wine and how much etc etc etc. It
    > really takes the gloss off the evening. I've even witnessed some
    > people insisting on half portions of things or sharing portions
    > (purely to save money).

Well, if most order economically, and one member of your party orders
food and drink lavishly, I can see where the others might object to
splitting the bill evenly. ....But in that case, you just don't include
that person the next time (or everyone orders just as lavishly). In the
U.S. you can always ask for "separate checks", although staff in some of
the better restaurants don't care much for the practice. I've heard of
groups who simply put in "X" amount of money each at the start of a
trip, and delegate one of the party to take care of all the
expenditures. (If the money runs short, they all ante up an equal
amount to replenish the fund, and if there's money left over at the end
of the trip, they all share equally.) That doesn't exactly eliminate
freeloaders, but I'd hesitate to take an extended trip with someone I
didn't know well enough to determine that, wouldn't you?

David wrote:
    >
    > LoL!
    >
    > IME there is always someone in a travelling group whose insists on
    > totting-up every cent and expects their expediture to be total/n where
    > n is the number of people. Yawn...

It's almost as bad as when two people both insist on picking up the tab
and neither will give in. My sister once got into a tussle that lasted
all the way to the parking lot, and ended with her throwing the money in
the other person's car window. I tried to pretend I wasn't with them.

Barbara

On Thu, 09 Jan 2003 14:10:47 +0100, Barbara Vaughan
wrote:

    >David wrote:
    >>
    >> LoL!
    >>
    >> IME there is always someone in a travelling group whose insists on
    >> totting-up every cent and expects their expediture to be total/n where
    >> n is the number of people. Yawn...
    >It's almost as bad as when two people both insist on picking up the tab
    >and neither will give in. My sister once got into a tussle that lasted
    >all the way to the parking lot, and ended with her throwing the money in
    >the other person's car window. I tried to pretend I wasn't with them.

but you picked up the money and pocketed it, right? :-)

Jim.

Jim Ley wrote:
    >
    > On Thu, 09 Jan 2003 14:10:47 +0100, Barbara Vaughan
    > wrote:
    >
    > >
    > >
    > >David wrote:
    > >>
    > >> LoL!
    > >>
    > >> IME there is always someone in a travelling group whose insists on
    > >> totting-up every cent and expects their expediture to be total/n where
    > >> n is the number of people. Yawn...
    > >
    > >It's almost as bad as when two people both insist on picking up the tab
    > >and neither will give in. My sister once got into a tussle that lasted
    > >all the way to the parking lot, and ended with her throwing the money in
    > >the other person's car window. I tried to pretend I wasn't with them.
    >
    > but you picked up the money and pocketed it, right? :-)

I should have!

Barbara

"EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" wrote in message news:...
    > David wrote:
    > >
    > > LoL!
    > >
    > > IME there is always someone in a travelling group whose insists on
    > > totting-up every cent and expects their expediture to be total/n where
    > > n is the number of people. Yawn...
    > >
    > > I've seen this descend into arguments at the restaurant table over who
    > > had what starter;who drank which wine and how much etc etc etc. It
    > > really takes the gloss off the evening. I've even witnessed some
    > > people insisting on half portions of things or sharing portions
    > > (purely to save money).
    >

True, but implied in the invitation to the meal is that cost of the
meal, inc brandy, is split between the group, but wine (unless
partaken by all, and to a similar standard) and cigars are considered
seperately. It usually works quite well as the groups are 8-10people.
Any less than that and the meal cost gets a bit more volatile.

I'd rather wake up with a hangover and an empty wallet after a great
night than spent 39CHF and spend half the time arguing. Incidentally
if people do start squabbling, its amazing the number of people that
decide to go home early rather than continuing festivities. The
atmosphere has gone.

For say 4 people, one person usually takes the chair (bill) so to
speak, and provided they see each other more than once a year, it is
taken in turns.

But in a similar vein to the main issue of the thread, simple manners
ie respect for the others present should suffice when deciding how to
treat the bill which means if you smoke Bolivars (like me) then you
can hardly expect John's girlfriend to pay a fraction...
(As an aside, Thank God for smoking in restaurants.)

It usually works out as integer(total * (1 + tipfraction) / n ), which
is usually rounded to provide a nice figure to minimise change
hassles. Works for us ;-)

Seperate checks are a recipe for disaster, and a waste of valuable
drinking time IMO.

    > Well, if most order economically, and one member of your party orders
    > food and drink lavishly, I can see where the others might object to
    > splitting the bill evenly. ....But in that case, you just don't include
    > that person the next time (or everyone orders just as lavishly).

Having a fund or "kitty" as it is known in UK at least, is a really
risky business, if you are the holder of the funds. I've only
experienced in buying rounds of drinks in busy pubs, and then only on
events as club outings or (especially) stag nights. Guaranteed
everyone will drink double vodkas and Redbull until it comes out of
their ears and there is the obligatory bucket of alcohol for the
groom-to-be. Being the keeper of the funds is a poison chalice (sic).

dave

On Thu, 09 Jan 2003 14:10:47 +0100, Barbara Vaughan
wrote:


    >>It's almost as bad as when two people both insist on picking up the tab
    >>and neither will give in. My sister once got into a tussle that lasted
    >>all the way to the parking lot, and ended with her throwing the money in
    >>the other person's car window. I tried to pretend I wasn't with them.

Going off on a total tangent here, your story reminded me of what
happened to me last year.
I picked up some tourists from a cruise ship at Dover, and took them
to London, on the way they asked if they could stop to try some
traditional British Fare and after a quick discussion among themselves
they decided that if they split the bill 4 ways, they would buy me
dinner as well, which i thought was really nice of them, until they
advised me they were all vegetarians, but not just ordinary
vegetarians, but Vegans....
Not only did that rule out almost every traditional British dish I
could think of, it also meant we spent over 2 hours in Canterbury just
trying to find somewhere to eat.
I politely refused their offer of food (sorry, but I NEED RED MEAT in
my meals), ad went of to maccy d's to eat, when I came back to get
them, they were almost coming to blows with each other over what
portion of the Bill was each ones... not a nice scene, and i don't
suppose i helped much by saying, "I thought it was only meat eaters
that were aggressive".
All the way from canterbury to Knightsbridge these 4 argues over the
bill all the way.
Sad..very sad...still I got my own back, the thought of 4 vegetarians
in London wanting traditional British fare, made me laugh all the way
home.




---
Coming into London Gatwick?
Fixed price Transfers to Central London
http://www.airporttransfers.biz
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On Thu, 09 Jan 2003 14:57:22 GMT, Office Manager wrote
    > On Thu, 09 Jan 2003 14:10:47 +0100, Barbara Vaughan
    > wrote:

-snip re: vegan meals and Traditionale Ye Olde British Fayre-

    > I politely refused their offer of food (sorry, but I NEED RED MEAT
    > in my meals), ad went of to maccy d's to eat,


Reminds of a sig line I saw recently:

Scientists have discovered a protein supplement that greatly
improves the flavour of vegetarian meals.

Meat.

--
Cheers,
Harvey

For e-mail, harvey becomes whhvs.

    > Going off on a total tangent here, your story reminded me of what
    > happened to me last year.
    > I picked up some tourists from a cruise ship at Dover, and took them
    > to London, on the way they asked if they could stop to try some
    > traditional British Fare and after a quick discussion among themselves
    > they decided that if they split the bill 4 ways, they would buy me
    > dinner as well, which i thought was really nice of them, until they
    > advised me they were all vegetarians, but not just ordinary
    > vegetarians, but Vegans....
    > Not only did that rule out almost every traditional British dish I
    > could think of, it also meant we spent over 2 hours in Canterbury just
    > trying to find somewhere to eat.
    > I politely refused their offer of food (sorry, but I NEED RED MEAT in
    > my meals), ad went of to maccy d's to eat, when I came back to get
    > them, they were almost coming to blows with each other over what
    > portion of the Bill was each ones... not a nice scene, and i don't
    > suppose i helped much by saying, "I thought it was only meat eaters
    > that were aggressive".
    > All the way from canterbury to Knightsbridge these 4 argues over the
    > bill all the way.
    > Sad..very sad...still I got my own back, the thought of 4 vegetarians
    > in London wanting traditional British fare, made me laugh all the way
    > home.
So how did they split your fare ?
And how much did they argue against the extra cost of the en-route stopover
?

Seems there are three reasonable ways to pay for a group at a
restaurant:

The chinese way: Everyone (or maybe just the alpha males) fights for
the right to pay for everything. A good system, but I suspect the world
is full of chinese secret suspicious that some people dont fight so
hard.

Split down middle: reasonable if everyone drank and ate much the same -
but should always be instigated by the those who ate/drank less. It's
awful if you've just had one course, and the person who had the steak,
and 3 other courses, and the 10 year old red says "why don't we just
divide the total by six." I've a friend that doesn't drink, so she'd
end up paying double for her meal.

Everyone pays what they think they owe: I find with publicly spirited
people, everyone throws in a little extra, and the pool is usually 25%
over. Then it's a matter of deciding who's over paid, or whether the
money should be a tip, or used to buy another round. If it does come
under, then just ask everyone to chip in the extra - but usually you
find that there is something on the bill that no one ordered.

Haggling is never worth it. If you think your friends are trying to rip
you off, then why are you there? If you think they are in error, don't
ruin a friendship because they are lousy at maths.

joan

--
Joan McGalliard, UK http://www.mcgalliard.org

On Thu, 9 Jan 2003 16:25:37 -0000, "Miss L.Toe" wrote:

    >>So how did they split your fare ?
No idea, it was pre-paid
    >>And how much did they argue against the extra cost of the en-route stopover
As far as I can remember I didn't tell the office about the stop-over,
so they were never charged.
The usual practice here is if you offered lunch by a passenger, we
dont tell the office.



Coming into London Stansted?
Fixed price Taxi to Central London
http://www.airporttransfers.biz
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