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Another French customer service experience

Another French customer service experience

Old Oct 30th 2004, 8:56 am
  #31  
Mxsmanic
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Default Re: Another French customer service experience

Jeremy Henderson writes:

    > I think selling poorly constructed shoes under a high price tag
    > corresponds to a "vice cache".

Not if the price pays for appearance, instead of durability. That is
true for many luxury items, so there are plenty of precedents.

    > Absolutely. It's not acceptable for shoes to be worn out in 4 weeks.

It's not acceptable to wear them for four weeks before you decide to
turn them back in.

    > It's never happened before.

With identical shoes?

    > Wear and tear has different effects, depending on the characteristics
    > of the shoes in question.If the shoe was of defective materials and
    > design to start with, then normal wear wil have an unacceptable effect.

What is an "unacceptable effect"?

    > Since I didn't take the precaution of X-raying the shoe to start with
    > to determine the thickness of rubber coating the soles then I had no
    > way of judging that before parting with my cash.

So why do you feel that you're entitled to some specific thickness of
rubber on the soles?

Many dress shoes are very cheaply made and will not tolerate more than
very light use. I know this from many years of experience (and that's
one reason why I wear only hiking boots today).

    > I'm not asking your advice as an expert on shoes (though I seem to have
    > got that for free). I was asking about the general resources available
    > to the consumer. If you have something to contribute apart from truisms
    > and uninformed speculation it would be welcome.

You're going to have to show negligence if you wish to make any claim
against the retailer. You'll have to show that there is something
_wrong_ with the shoes, and not just that they wore out quickly (unless
you were guaranteed a specific amount of wear and tear and they wore out
prematurely).

    > I think it's self-evident that there was a defect in the shoes -
    > whether in manufacturing or elsewhere.

"Self-evident" won't fly in front of a tribunal. You'll have to be more
specific than that.

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Old Oct 30th 2004, 8:58 am
  #32  
nitram
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Default Re: Another French customer service experience

On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 22:52:13 +0200, Mxsmanic <[email protected]>
wrote:

    >[email protected] writes:
    >> One month isn't normal wear and tear for a pair of man's shoes.
    >Why not?

think about it.

    >My shoes last a bit over a year--but I can put 5000 km on them in that
    >time.

So that is normal or what?

    >> Clarkes shoes last years, without wearing out or falling apart.
    >It's not time, it's distance. What distance are they good for?

They appear be good for an infinite distance.
--
Martin
 
Old Oct 30th 2004, 9:02 am
  #33  
nitram
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Default Re: Another French customer service experience

On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 22:56:02 +0200, Mxsmanic <[email protected]>
wrote:

    >"Self-evident" won't fly in front of a tribunal. You'll have to be more
    >specific than that.

What tribunal?
--
Martin
 
Old Oct 30th 2004, 9:04 am
  #34  
Jim Ley
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Default Re: Another French customer service experience

On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 22:56:02 +0200, Mxsmanic <[email protected]>
wrote:

    >Jeremy Henderson writes:
    >> Absolutely. It's not acceptable for shoes to be worn out in 4 weeks.
    >It's not acceptable to wear them for four weeks before you decide to
    >turn them back in.

Of course it is, from the description we've had they're not fit for
the purpose described (walking on them in the case of the shoe) Just
like if the fridge stops working after a month.

    >You're going to have to show negligence if you wish to make any claim
    >against the retailer.

Well, I don't know the french law in this area, but this sort of thing
comes under European directives, so my UK experience should translate
fine, and shoes failing to last a month would easily win in the small
claims court, so easily that no retailer would risk the action.

Jim.
 
Old Oct 30th 2004, 9:11 am
  #35  
Lennart Petersen
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Default Re: Another French customer service experience

"Mxsmanic" <[email protected]> skrev i meddelandet
news:[email protected]...
    > [email protected] writes:
    >> One month isn't normal wear and tear for a pair of man's shoes.
    > Why not?
    > My shoes last a bit over a year--but I can put 5000 km on them in that
    > time.
That's 14km/day or 3h daily walking in average pace.
Deduct sleeping and all the hours spend with the computer and r.t.e what's
left ?
 
Old Oct 30th 2004, 9:14 am
  #36  
nitram
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Default Re: Another French customer service experience

On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 21:04:31 GMT, [email protected] (Jim Ley) wrote:

    >On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 22:56:02 +0200, Mxsmanic <[email protected]>
    >wrote:
    >>Jeremy Henderson writes:
    >>> Absolutely. It's not acceptable for shoes to be worn out in 4 weeks.
    >>It's not acceptable to wear them for four weeks before you decide to
    >>turn them back in.
    >Of course it is, from the description we've had they're not fit for
    >the purpose described (walking on them in the case of the shoe) Just
    >like if the fridge stops working after a month.
    >>You're going to have to show negligence if you wish to make any claim
    >>against the retailer.
    >Well, I don't know the french law in this area, but this sort of thing
    >comes under European directives, so my UK experience should translate
    >fine, and shoes failing to last a month would easily win in the small
    >claims court, so easily that no retailer would risk the action.

exactly.

I wondered if MXmanic was Al Bundy in a previous incarnation.
http://www.bundyology.com/bal.html
--
Martin
 
Old Oct 30th 2004, 9:16 am
  #37  
nitram
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Default Re: Another French customer service experience

On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 21:11:21 GMT, "Lennart Petersen"
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >"Mxsmanic" <[email protected]> skrev i meddelandet
    >news:[email protected].. .
    >> [email protected] writes:
    >>> One month isn't normal wear and tear for a pair of man's shoes.
    >> Why not?
    >> My shoes last a bit over a year--but I can put 5000 km on them in that
    >> time.
    >That's 14km/day or 3h daily walking in average pace.

That's normal for a guide surely?

    >Deduct sleeping and all the hours spend with the computer and r.t.e what's
    >left ?

sunsets?

--
Martin
 
Old Oct 30th 2004, 9:31 am
  #38  
Jeremy Henderson
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Default Re: Another French customer service experience

On 2004-10-30 22:56:02 +0200, Mxsmanic <[email protected]> said:

    > Jeremy Henderson writes:

    >> Absolutely. It's not acceptable for shoes to be worn out in 4 weeks.
    >
    > It's not acceptable to wear them for four weeks before you decide to
    > turn them back in.

But it took four weeks for the holes to develop. Am I supposed to take
them back after one week and say "Excuse me, but these shoes are going
to be worn through in another three weeks. Can I have my money back?"
Can't see that flying, can you?

    >
    >> It's never happened before.
    >
    > With identical shoes?

No, but with the same pair of feet. Duuuh.

    > What is an "unacceptable effect"?

Holes in the soles, for instance?

    >> Since I didn't take the precaution of X-raying the shoe to start with
    >> to determine the thickness of rubber coating the soles then I had no
    >> way of judging that before parting with my cash.
    >
    > So why do you feel that you're entitled to some specific thickness of
    > rubber on the soles?

Because that will enable the shoes to be worn for walking around in for
a reasonable period of time. Do try to concentrate.

    > You'll have to show that there is something
    > _wrong_ with the shoes, and not just that they wore out quickly

I think that wearing out quickly is clear evidence that the shoes were faulty.

    >> I think it's self-evident that there was a defect in the shoes -
    >> whether in manufacturing or elsewhere.
    >
    > "Self-evident" won't fly in front of a tribunal. You'll have to be more
    > specific than that.

What are you hallucinating about now?

J;

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Old Oct 30th 2004, 9:41 am
  #39  
nitram
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Default Re: Another French customer service experience

On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 23:31:28 +0200, Jeremy Henderson <[email protected]>
wrote:


    >What are you hallucinating about now?

You, bare foot on the tumbrel? :-)
--
Martin
 
Old Oct 30th 2004, 10:03 am
  #40  
Mxsmanic
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Default Re: Another French customer service experience

[email protected] writes:

    > think about it.

I have. That's why I asked the question.

    > So that is normal or what?

There's no such thing as normal in terms of time, but only in terms of
actual use, which varies from one situation to another.

    > They appear be good for an infinite distance.

No shoes are good for infinite distance. Very good shoes designed
specifically for use over very long distances may last for thousands of
kilometres. Most ordinary shoes, be they dress, casual, or sport, last
for only a fraction of this distance. Some will start to fall apart
after only a few kilometres of walking. A lot of fancy dress
shoes--including many very expensive shoes--are literally made of
cardboard.

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Old Oct 30th 2004, 10:03 am
  #41  
Mxsmanic
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Default Re: Another French customer service experience

Lennart Petersen writes:

    > That's 14km/day or 3h daily walking in average pace.

Correct.

    > Deduct sleeping and all the hours spend with the computer and r.t.e what's
    > left ?

Nothing. That's how I spent my time.

--
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Old Oct 30th 2004, 10:04 am
  #42  
Mxsmanic
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Default Re: Another French customer service experience

[email protected] writes:

    > That's normal for a guide surely?

Actually, on days when I have clients, I walk far less, since they
usually can't manage 14 kilometres in one day (although my record is 32
km in 14 hours with a client, but she was an experienced walker).

--
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Old Oct 30th 2004, 10:04 am
  #43  
Mxsmanic
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Default Re: Another French customer service experience

[email protected] writes:

    > What tribunal?

If you file a lawsuit that's usually where it ends up.

--
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Old Oct 30th 2004, 10:07 am
  #44  
Mxsmanic
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Default Re: Another French customer service experience

Jeremy Henderson writes:

    > But it took four weeks for the holes to develop.

It's not time, it's distance and conditions. How far did you walk
during that time, and where?

    > Holes in the soles, for instance?

If the rubber on the soles is thin, I can easily imagine it being worn
through completely after four months of walking. My shoes decrease in
height by about a centimetre between the time I buy them and the time I
finally replace them, all of it due to wear on the soles (but
fortunately the soles are very thick).

    > Because that will enable the shoes to be worn for walking around in for
    > a reasonable period of time.

Is that walking around 20 km a day, or 500 metres per week?

Shoes kept in a box will never wear out.

    > I think that wearing out quickly is clear evidence that the shoes were faulty.

That depends on how much you walked with them, and where.

--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
 
Old Oct 30th 2004, 10:30 am
  #45  
Jeremy Henderson
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Default Re: Another French customer service experience

On 2004-10-31 00:07:47 +0200, Mxsmanic <[email protected]> said:

    > Jeremy Henderson writes:
    >
    >> But it took four weeks for the holes to develop.
    >
    > It's not time, it's distance and conditions. How far did you walk
    > during that time, and where?

In the part you snipped, you questioned my waiting 4 weeks to return
the shoes. Now according to your logic, I could have waited years as
long as I hadn't walked much in the shoes. You need to make up your
mind what you think before your knee starts jerking.

    >> I think that wearing out quickly is clear evidence that the shoes were faulty.
    >
    > That depends on how much you walked with them, and where.

Indeed - which is why I supplied that information in my original post.

J;
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