SA Expat

Hi Campbell

Make no mistake we do thank God we're here and out of SA. Yes, we miss it but would never go back to stay. Simply not an option, especially with children. I still have 2 brothers in Constantia who are not planning on leaving. The elder is a property developer in Table View/Blaauwberg and is really wealthy. Spends much of his time travelling abroad and can leave anytime but chooses not to. Crazy. My sister in Cape Town is planning to leave soon to the UK. She came here last March for six weeks and liked it more than I do but agreed about the schooling, shops and food. We all have British passports so she has decided it will be less hassle for her to go there. My mother returned to Chelmsford, Essex a couple of years ago and has a great quality of life there as there are so many places of interest for her to go to and Europe is just a hop. My sister's two children finished school last year and her daughter has just started studying with Unisa to be a Chartered Accountant which she can continue through Blake College in the UK. They're linked to Unisa. Her son wishes to study for a teaching degree but is taking a gap year while they decide where he'll study.
I can understand your anger re SA as we felt pretty much the same. No accountability in the govt. I also don't think the schooling will stay as good as it is. Yes, my sister has told me about the price of things and how much they're going up. Shocking about Bantry Bay though. My cousin here grew up there and has been here 13yrs now. She loves it but has quite a good standard of living as they're extremely wealthy and travel alot. Tends to do most of their clothes shopping in Oz. Appears that a lot of wealthy kiwis go to Melbourne to clothes shop. My daughter does not hang out at the shopping malls and does not wish to, she avoids shopping like the plague. She hates clothes shopping most of all. Not your average teenage girl there.
Gordons Bay is full of Afrikaaners so not surprised about the attitude to a Scot.
Best of luck and do have a great time when you come over on the 28th. I'm not trying to discourage you from emigrating here but think very carefully about what you want and ask lots of questions. I honestly did not expect the schooling to be a problem for us so did not go into it very much. My cousin did warn me but I simply thought she was exaggerating and was caught up in unpacking, etc. I have a brother who has been here for more than 20yrs - spent most of his time in Gisborne, Havelock North/Cambridge and Auckland. His four children were/are in private schools but I simply never questioned it. His life revolves around the sea, very into sailing, diving, etc but would also not return here - at the moment he is on contract in American Samoa and his children are in boarding school and University here. He is an Engineer. I'd say the best thing here is the safety but do look beyond that. Still not used to the freedom here, it takes time.
Mooi Bly
SA Expat

Damages

I've heard of whinging poms but you South Africans really take the biscuit. I am intending to come over to NZ and rescue the failing education system. (I am a teacher) so perhaps your worries are over. I don't wear black suits preferring either pink or purple with spangly bits and a huge orange bow tie. I would happily whip these unruly and stupid kiwi scruffs into shape with a large rubber cosh. I tried to warn you about the state of education in NZ by posting a notice in my local corner shop. Sadly you chose to ignore it. As for the back door into Oz the ozzies are simply filtering out the whingers. For you to think of NZ as a back door into Oz suggests that you were not good enough to get in there.

Hmmm! What intellectual activities are there for the youth of SA?

I'm sorry but I missed the Maths Olympiad due to the saturation coverage of 'I'm a celebrity get me out of here' (and this in the most intellectually superior UK - Oxford & Cambridge y'know!!) but I did manage to throw a book of logarithmic tables in excess of 100 metres. I'm sure that intellectual stimulation could be found in a library or even by being a little more proactive rather than expecting everything to be laid on (or are you suggesting that Kiwis are intellectually sub-normal and therefore incapable of joining in with any intellectual pursuit).

Nyeh nyeh!!
Nyeh nyeh!
Nyeh nyeh!
Nyeh nyeh!
Nyeh nyeh!
Nyeh nyeh!
Nyeh nyeh!

I can't help but notice that comparisons are continually made with SA. If SA is so marvellous then why not return there? Alternatively you could always go to the UK (they take anyone here).

Same in Blighty. My dentist is swedish, my doctor is Pakistani, my librarian is Kenyan (My wife actually), my solicitor is scottish, my accountant is chinese,my colleagues are Kiwis, Aussies, South Africans, Nigerians, Ghanians, Italians, transylvanians, venutians and goddam martians.....oh...and a welshman.

I have no wish to undermine your experiences but you really need to get a grip. If you feel you have made such a calamitous mistake then you really must address your problem and stop blaming everyone else. I am sure NZ isn't for everyone and particularly not you. Perhaps you should concentrate on amending your errors and not prejudicing others' opinions of NZ with your narrow view of things. When you speak of SA in such glowing terms I wonder why you left such a marvellous place. I have an ugly suspicicion that you are part of a priveleged minority who have recently lost those priveleges to become just a minority suffering from a huge helping of sour grapes. The good old days are not to be found in NZ.

I think Campbell is sufficiently informed and certainly not singing from your hymnsheet!

Ali

kiwijetpilot

Wrong again.

In a survey carried out by the Times Higher Education Supplement (THES), which is considered authoritative amongst education professionals, We find the following results for 2004:

67 - Auckland University (NZ) higher than the Sorbonne
108 - Massey University (NZ)
114 - Otago University (NZ)

The University of Mexico appears at 195.

Not a single South African university appears on the list.

Where exactly do they say this? It is the most grotesque generalisation I have ever heard.

The "leaky home syndrome" is a specific problem in the design of a small number of houses that use an externally applied coating. It is confined mainly to Auckland, and has nothing to do with what you are talking about.

If your house is leaking and damp, it is an exception and needs fixing. Did you have an inspection done before you bought it?

Just because you can't get on with the dress code or the perceived lack of discipline, doesn't make it a poor school system. I have already provided you with clear evidence that the school system is on a par with the UK (ie England and Scotland), and miles ahead of SA. You clearly want a school with very strict discipline, very high workloads, and a strong dress code. Fine, go private, but don't run down the school system here when all the evidence indicates that your experience is not the normal standard.

You clearly need to be somewhere else. If your beloved South Africa is so wonderful, why not go back there? You can enjoy the wonderful shops, the first rate school system, the plethora of "intellectual" pursuits on offer there. You will clearly never integrate into New Zealand, you spend all your time looking over your shoulder and wishing for some paradise that doesn't exist.

I'm afraid you are simply reinforcing the perception I have of South Africans I have met here, which seems to be "me first", I'm better than you", 'South Africa is the jewel in the crown of the world". Nothing is ever good enough. Why do you come here in such numbers?

Kayser Soze

Wow!!! - I wish I could join in this discussions about schooling but I don't have any ankle-biters so can't comment. All I can say is that I would wait a very long time in UK for 13/14 year olds to smile and say Hi or Hello as I pass them.
This has happened many times in NZ and the kids do seem happier, healthier and if you have kids my view is that they will have a greater access, in NZ, to the outdoors and more healthier pursuits than anywhere in the UK and all in all be more contented.

As to the food. Well if you look you can find good fish, meat, vegetables, herbs etc. We eat as well here as in UK and certainly trust the quality of NZ foods more than UK with its many recent food scares.

Shopping - Forget it. NZ has 4 million people. UK 60 mill. Shopping is not a big pastime (though I appreciate that for some in UK it is their ONLY pastime!!). You can get most things but, of course, the variety is limited and the shopping malls would fit in a small corner of the ones in Essex, Kent, Gateshead and Manchester.

Houses - wooden. I've owned several in my two spells in NZ and done them all up and sold them - thank-you very much. They vary. They can creak in the wind and leak through the roof but most things can be cured by old-fashioned graft and DIY (the Kiwis favourite pastime!). I find them cold but maybe that's just me.

Also good - bookshops, libraries, eating out (I believe Wellington, per capita, has more restaurants than New York), cinema (you won't wait long for new films), the beaches, sailing, hiking (tramping) and anything to do with the great outdoors. Driving can be fun again with few queues outside rush hours.

Not good - TV (hopeless American pap littered with ads every few mins), live entertainment (yes some top names come but not many and not often; there just isn't the market), live sport (just try getting a ticket for the All Blacks and find out the debenture and season ticket holders have nabbed the lot!), electrical goods (good but expensive). Oh and there is very little history but then the country only dates really from 1840 so what do you expect.

Now if they can only sort out the Maori problem - but that's another story

I've got both passports so I feel able to comment. I've made money in both countries but I don't mind a bit of grafting.
It is a great country. Very laid back, based on agriculture and the outdoor life and not really in with the big boys of the world but then perhaps that is part of its charm?

Its not UK nor does it want to be but is has different things to offer. If you want UK then the only place for you is.........


K.S.

kiwijetpilot

Hmmm what happened to the "edit" button during that maintenance... hmmm smilies don't seem to work either...

Just a general comment on houses and heating.

I find some of them cold too. However, the only difference between the level of coldness between here and the UK is that over there, you just switch on the central heating! I miss my central heating too.

Now of course, you can have central heating here too, and many do. Even double glazing is increasing in popularity, although more for noise reasons than heat reasons. There is no reason why you can't heat your house to the same level of cosiness as in the UK or anywhere else, the only difference is that you do it in a different way. The traditional Kiwi was has been wood burners, now many are tending towards underfloor heating, or warm air heating, or the Daiken-type heaters that are actually heat pumps and cool you in the summer. The standard UK system of hot water radiators is very inefficient, which is why it is not common here.

I guarantee that if you look, there are as many ways to heat a house here as there are in the UK. Of course this costs money, but it will always cost you less money than in the UK! There are also more ways to insulate your house (like underfloor insulation) than there are in the UK.

It is interesting that, if you travel to Scandinavia, you will find large numbers of wooden houses. That is a climate far more extreme than NZ, and they choose the wooden houses...

My point? You can't say that the houses are "cold" until you are pumping as much heat into them as you did in your UK house. If you are doing that, and you are still cold, then fair enough. However, most folk who feel cold are not pumping all that much heat into their houses.

In our house, we haven't had a heater on since late October.

As well as that, most new houses are routinely fitted with DVS systems that slightly "pressurise" the house, and eliminate condensation. They also fix any dampness problems you may have, and provide some level of heating. These systems are increasingly being retrofitted in older houses. They aren't all that expensive either.

So I reckon cold houses are more of a perception thing. If you spend half as much on heating as you did in your UK house, it will be toasty warm. If you come from South Africa, double the expenditure to get that authentic high veldt feeling!

binman

[As well as that, most new houses are routinely fitted with DVS systems that slightly "pressurise" the house, and eliminate condensation. They also fix any dampness problems you may have, and provide some level of heating. These systems are increasingly being retrofitted in older houses. They aren't all that expensive either.

So I reckon cold houses are more of a perception thing. If you spend half as much on heating as you did in your UK house, it will be toasty warm. If you come from South Africa, double the expenditure to get that authentic high veldt feeling![/QUOTE]

I can only talk from my experiece of living in Auckland, buy a house well positioned for the sun and insulated and heating is not an issue however condensation is. Has anyone had a DVS system installed? I have heard some good reports but for a two storey house it is between $3000 and $3500. Cheers binman

lily34

couldn't agree more!

the education system is one reason why we're going to NZ! My partner is a primary teacher here in the UK, and as ANY teacher in the UK will say, the system may give British children a good education but there's little point in that if no teacher wants to work in it! He left his permanent teaching position 2 years ago, because of paperwork, target driven practices and rude kids he wasn't allowed to discipline (I'm talking about sending out of the classroom here, not beating with a stick!) and since then he's been working as a supply and he's got more work than he can take on. Teaching, as a profession, is in crisis in the UK. He's also looking forward to getting over to the less politically obsessed classrooms of NZ and sorting a few whinging kiwi's out

We DO have a child - a 3 month old baby. I'd rather he has a less academically obsessed education but actually ENJOY going to school, than stay here and be crying at 3am when he's 7 because he's so worried about his SAT's, or hassling us for a mobile phone which he then gets mugged for in the playground.

Anyone who migrates needs to be prepared to take the rough with the smooth. NZ isn't the promised land but it does offer opportunities if you look for them. We could stay in Nottingham and have a 60k salary between us, but put up with pollution, crime (and I mean SERIOUS crime happening every day) unbelievable house prices and materialistic ' I'm alright' culture. Or we could go to NZ and earn less but maybe have the opportunity to live in a community that can offer more of the really important things in life. My uncle migrated 5 years ago, and he's full of nothing but praise for NZ. He loves the people, the culture and his job and has never regretted giving up a 40k job here to migrate.

anyway, thats my tuppence worth while I'm here, does anyone know how long the actual immigration process is taking now?

Campbells

Interesting news from NZ Herald:

Tim Miles goes from running a $1 billion business in New Zealand to a $12 billion one in the UK. Picture / Martin Sykes


09.02.05
By OWEN HEMBRY

After running Vodafone in this country for three years, New Zealander Tim Miles has won the telco's top job in the United Kingdom - running a business with a turnover of $12 billion.


Food for thought !

Cheers

Campbel

Kayser Soze

So just what happened to Tony Blair's mantra of 'Education, Ecucation, Ecucation'?

Surely after 8 years in power the UK education system has improved???

K.S.

Damages

Where shall we start? I'm going to have to really lay myself on the line here to explain how the education system fails our kids. We have 3 children, our eldest is 14 (mine from a previous relationship). She got into a good local all-girl comprehensive school 3 years ago and blew it from there. Unfortunately, the disciplinary procedures are so namby-pamby and PC that she got away with everything (we're talking truanting, drinking, a lousy attitude, no interest in extra-curricular activities, bullying, and a complete disregard for other pupils). It was left up to us the parents to discipline her for her behaviour in schools. Now of course we should take responsibility, but 5 or 6 hours after the event is not very effective. And yes we did take action, hit her where it hurt-in the pocket and the mobile phone. This all culminated in her walking out last summer to go and live with her biological father. She seems fairly sorted now but then she's materially very comfortable. The point I'm trying to make is that teachers are powerless to deal with extremely disruptive, belligerent and sometimes violent pupils, and many parents (not us) aren't helpful, but instead highly defensive and also sometimes violent (and that's not just in secondary schools). Our middle child (my stepson) is a completely different kettle of fish. He consistently gets good reports, has a good attitude, but no decent school to go to. It's become a bit of a 'postcode lottery' as they say, if you can afford to live near the best schools you'll get your kids in, a new kind of social engineering (let's not go there, but it's interesting that New Labour's political dogma is The Third Way which in German is The Third Reich!!!) Similarly to the earlier post, we would rather our children were learning for learning's sake not for the sake of fulfilling targets and percentages, our children are not statistics. Tony Blair envisions a future where 50% of Brits go to university, you can currently do degrees in Equine Studies, Knitting, Golf Course Studies, Football Studies and the like (I kid you not). I don't imagine it's much different the world over the bullsxxt degree seems to have dominion over practical vocational courses such as City and Guilds or apprenticeships. You can even do a degree in building! So when you graduate, you are fully conversant with the theory of house building but you're not getting your suit mucky with mortar. It's no surprise that we have a shortage of tradesmen because they're being forced into academia (the school that Alex will end up going to has a large population of working class boys who will all be forced to follow an academic path to fulfil Mr Blair's dream). Melanie Phillips put it well in the title of her book 'All Must Have Prizes'. By the way I'm a woolly minded liberal who has fallen by the wayside with all the disappointment I have in the current government.

Kayser Soze

I have browsed many of these sites pending my return to UK in April and it occurs to me that people are less than happy with New Labour over education, NHS, immigrants, crime etc etc BUT the other 2 parties offer nothing that is anything better so Blair gets back because the oppostion are a load of duffers!

At some point the indifference in the UK will force some well meaning folk to form a proper political party but until then looks like UK is stuck with his Blairness.

Me...I'm off to do some revising for my surfing degree

K.S.

lily34

it depends how you define 'improvement'. There's much more focus on targets now - literacy targets, numeracy targets, etc. But thats ALL teaching has become here. Teachers are under a huge amount of pressure to meet these targets that are set by OFFSTED, as well as get on with the normal, everyday process of teaching. When Justin was working in a permanent role a couple of years ago, his typical working day started at 8am, with a staff meeting (to discuss the targets), teaching rude, difficult kids all day til 3.30, then 2-3 hours of marking and preparation for the following day. At w/k's he'd typically do another 5-6 hours prep for monday. I know most people work similar hours, but its exhausting working with kids. The children also get extremely stressed now about their SAT's - there's this huge pressure on them from parents and teachers alike to perform well. Parents because they want their child to get into a good school later and teachers because the position of the school in the league tables relies on SAT results. Things like sport activities and art are taking a back seat in primary schools - Justin teaches at some schools where they do 1 hour of sport a week! The kids can'
t run round the playground without getting out of breath! They prefer standing around showing each other their mobile phones or talking about playing grand theft auto on the PS2.

ok, that was a bit of a rant - sorry As I said, it think it depends how you define success - personally, I don't think the success of a country's education can be measured just by academic success,but by how happy the children and adults are in that system?

Roger

Tony Blair sends his kids to non-fee paying, but exclusive schools which they could not get into was it not for the fact he is PM.

Can't comment on Kiwi schools but those in Hawkes Bay I'm told are okay and the kids look smart.

The houses are cold (even in Hawkes bay which has a great climate with poss. 6 days of frost). I had one built in the 'stick built' Kiwi stylie and am not impressed with the insulation/sound qualities. I have a ducted heat pump/Aircon system which is effective when on but the heat/cool disappears as soon as it goes off. I paid as much for power last winter than I ever have in the UK.

I am seriously looking at alternatives for my next house, certainly a solid build with thermal mass, thus the lack of extremes generated by the lightweight 'stick build' method. Unfortunately you cannot get Structurally Insulated Panels in NZ so possibly masonry with a thermally insulated brick. As for the seismic approach not all houses in California are wooden structures and note the only houses standing in Aceh in the wave zone on Boxing Day were the reinforced concrete ones.

I would consider double glazing, underfloor heating, aircon in living and main bedrooms. Unfortunately Kiwis are martyrs when it comes to warm homes and depend on old fashioned wood burners, insulating curtains, freestanding oil heaters littering their otherwise immaculate houses, and electric blankets. I'm afraid to say that I avoid visiting some friends in the winter as their houses are so cold.

Otherwise I love NZ, but the houses are my biggest gripe (though I love the open plan living, walk in wardrobes, laundry rooms and decks). Who said the food was poor, it's fantastic.
Roger

TIE

This is a fascinating thread…

I have to agree with many of the sentiments expressed at the beginning (and supported by, it seems, many others, including SA Expat). I also have experienced many of the good things that NZ has to offer.

We have been in NZ for 5 years, coming most recently from Zimbabwe, UK & Ireland, and have lived in many countries around the world. For quite a while we felt that it was just us who were “struggling in paradise�, although latterly many of our friends (all professionals, of various nationalities) have been saying many of the same things expressed in the original story. I guess we now understand why so many of the best & brightest Kiwis head overseas and end up staying there to make enough dosh to afford to come back when they have kids growing up.

To Kiwijetpilot, I have to say, NO THIS SITE DOES NOT NEED MORE KIWIS TELLING THE “TRUE�STORY. This is a great forum where people of UK & Irish extraction (or affiliation) can express their experiences. Not all will be glowingly positive – and it is almost impossible to express the frustrations anywhere else without great offense being taken.

To “Damages� – your post illustrates perfectly the above point!!! SA Expat has expressed his experiences & opinions, mainly for the benefit of others looking at moving to NZ (from SA) to at least inform them of another point of view. In your post this has been met with vitriolic personal attacks on him, and displays a well of resentment, dislike & prejudice against all South Africans (well, presumably only the white ones!!!)

You may find if you come here that the NZ Labour govt is pursuing many of the same policies as the Blair one with the same predictable results… On recent trips back to the UK, we found the newspaper headlines, stories & opinions all have a chillingly familiar tone on national issues such as education, health, schooling, immigration etc ….. Perhaps a job awaits you in the Ministry of Truth….

Migrating to a new country is a long, difficult, expensive & traumatic process, and it does not do any harm to hear negative as well as positive experiences from those who have travelled a similar path – many of good sense would rather know as much as possible beforehand and forewarned is fore-armed.

So no Thought Police required – the Govt & media provide it in spades.

Coming to live in a new country is NOT the same, as coming home to your home country (tautology intentional!)– however long you have been away – and SA Expat & others are not running NZ down, just saying what they have experienced. There is no shortage of information and opinion on how wonderful NZ is, how “world-class� everything is etc etc.

NZ does have many aspects which are fantastic – mainly around the “relaxed lifestyle�, political stability, peace & mostly low crime, certainly compared to some of the scarier parts of UK and Africa etc. However, all is not surrounded in a golden glow and there are a lot of frustrations & pitfalls. It is almost impossible to find Kiwis who understand what it is like to be a foreigner in NZ and the frustrations, particularly on the work, business & income front. Even Kiwi friends I have known overseas genuinely cannot understand this aspect.

Campbell, you sound like you need to get out of SA and soon – and I can understand the reasons why. NZ will offer you many things that you will probably love and appreciate – the feeling of safety & security at night (and day) just for starters. None of the “negatives� seem likely to put you off as they really only start to become apparent when you have been hare for a few years and the initial glow has worn off – but they ARE realistic, and not necessarily a minority whinger opinion as some would have it.

So, on with the forum, I am definitely hooked!!!

SA Expat

Damages
We're not interested in relocating to Oz but will be going to the States and actually, yes, we would qualify if we had wanted to go there. It is simply a well known fact that NZ is often used as a back door to emigrating there by people of all nationalities. Of course we belong to the library but I do get tired of hearing about the outdoor life/pursuits as that does wear off and can be done in plenty of other countries anyway.
I make comparisons to South Africa as that is where I have previously lived hence my point of reference. As Campbell is coming from there too I thought it might give him a little more insight? I am certainly not trying to paint South Africa in glowing terms and I certainly have not come from a privileged background as my parents were dirt poor. However, coming from a country with no social security net, political uncertainty, etc, brings home to me more than ever how important it is to have a good education. This is what 'opens doors' for people. No county is going to want someone without qualifications. Yes, it is important that our children are happy at school but happiness is not what one puts on a CV is it? I did not say we are unhappy here but we would like more opportunities for our children when they grow up and also for us to be nearer our families regarding travel. New Zealand has many positive things going for it but just as emigrating is a personal choice so is the destination and life choices. I know of many people that are happy here but also know of plenty others that are moving on. Nothing wrong with that. Its okay for us all to want different things in life, doesn't mean we're whinging.
Regards
SA Expat