Originally Posted by Exile (Post 4257012)

Drink driving seems to be far more socially acceptable in Perth, in my experience.

And as for drugs, you really didn't get out much, did you? The implication that it is not a major problem in Perth is incredibly naive. I've seen discarded syringes in car parks from City Beach to Mindarie. In my 2.5 years here, there have been quite a few reports about kids getting needle stick injuries from syringes left in playgrounds. Sadly, hard drugs are everywhere, and Perth is no exception.

Originally Posted by tableland (Post 4257095)

I also seem to be a master at touching your raw nerves. The issue here is perhaps one of long and short termism. Many people have looked at the UK and Australia and concluded - not unreasonably - that the latter offers more hope of a good life. The collapse of the British birth rate means that the tax will have to be very high in the UK to deal with the ageing population. This is one example of long-term trends that people are looking at.

In other words - which country will have the best opportunities in 30 years' time? Britain does offer a lot in my opinion, and remains a good country to live in, as is Australia. It's just about voicing an opinion, really, which people like yourself seem to be uncomfortable with, probably because you need your decision to live in the UK over Australia to be constantly reinforced, which is understandable.

Originally Posted by Skyblue67 (Post 4259444)

Don't know about the drug side of it but the drink driving here is absolutely rife. A lot of people seem to routinely drive around pissed and get away with it because a lot of the suburban roads are deserted and lightly policed. Worryingly, it seems to be socially acceptable to drink drive.

Originally Posted by denver (Post 4257274)

Oh dear. People don't generalise about Australia do they? Carrying on like all there is to do is go to the beach and the odd bbq.

Originally Posted by dunroving (Post 4256673)

I don't know why we are trying to argue about what the evidence shows regarding relative crime, transport costs, etc. For one thing, statistics don't tell the whole story (I know; I'm a statistician). More importantly, the reasons people go to Australia, or the US, or the UK, or return to/from any of these places (more than once - again, I know, I am one of those people) often do so for subjective, not objective, reasons.

It's human nature for many people, at least, to justify their move by slagging off where they are leaving, or focusing on the negatives. No-one is denying someone else's reality by saying Oz (or the UK, or US, etc.) isn't for them because they can't stand the bugs, or the heat, or the rain, or the crime, or the chavs, or the hoons, or the rednecks, or whatever.

I think we all just need to step back and chill a bit. When someone says "the UK is going to the dogs - ASBOs, NHS, house prices, blah, blah", I can see their point. There ARE problems with these things, but in my mind those problems are not great enough for me to want to live elsewhere. It doesn't tick me off that they say it (although it might do if that's all they can talk about, or if they seem absolutely incapable of recognizing any of the good things the UK has).

Similarly, although I left the US (twice!), I can see the myriad of great things about living there (standard of living, weather, sports, to name just a few), as well as the bad parts too (cost of healthcare, lack of welfare provision, narrow-mindedness, etc.).

Maybe I'm missing something. Perhaps this is really a sporting event - I'll prove that Oz (or the UK, or US, etc.) is crap and you prove it's great. Problem is, the game always seems to end in a nil-nil draw.

Originally Posted by HiddenPaw (Post 4257338)

Collapsing birth rate? Australia's birth rate in 2000 was half of what it was in 1960. Now, it is virtually the same as the UK (not sure if it's marginally higher or lower). Who is going to fund the ageing population in Australia then? Or don't you see this as an issue? Australia has one of the lowest "older" workforces in the western world - i.e the number of over 55s in the workforce is relatively low. Australia passed legislation a few years ago to increase the retirement age of women from 60 to 62 (effective in a couple of years), and is now talking of raising the male retirement age to 67. But you knew all that, didn't you. :rolleyes:

As for me needing my decision to live in the UK reinforced, why would I need that?

Originally Posted by tableland (Post 4263388)

The Australian birth rate is 12.14 births per 1000/population, and its death rate is 7.51 deaths per 1000/population. The UK birth rate is only 10.71 per 1000/population and its death rate is 10.13 deaths oer 1000/population. These figures speak for themselves, but imagine them in a long-term national demographic context. In addition - these figures show that the difference is a long way from "marginal".

Also, life expectancy is 80.5 years for a man in Australia, which is excellent by any standards, especially when compared to 78.5 years for a man in the UK.

And should Australia decide to raise the retirement age to 67, then it's the same as Britain, so arguing that if Canberra does something already done by London then Australia will be as crap as the UK is not a great argument.

Originally Posted by tableland (Post 4263388)

The Australian birth rate is 12.14 births per 1000/population, and its death rate is 7.51 deaths per 1000/population. The UK birth rate is only 10.71 per 1000/population and its death rate is 10.13 deaths oer 1000/population. These figures speak for themselves, but imagine them in a long-term national demographic context. In addition - these figures show that the difference is a long way from "marginal".

Also, life expectancy is 80.5 years for a man in Australia, which is excellent by any standards, especially when compared to 78.5 years for a man in the UK.

And should Australia decide to raise the retirement age to 67, then it's the same as Britain, so arguing that if Canberra does something already done by London then Australia will be as crap as the UK is not a great argument.

Originally Posted by HiddenPaw (Post 4263532)

It's a great place to live, and you know what, it is possible to love living in both the UK and Australia. I do.

p.s in terms of your statistics, the fact that Australia is addressing this issue of ageing population is enough for me to know that it is a real issue, regardless of what is happening round the other side of the planet. Once you have the benefit of living in Australia (as an adult), rather than living by the theory, as you do, then you will realise that really, this stuff about 'my country is better than yours' is not that important. ;)

Originally Posted by bundy (Post 4263610)

Hear, hear. Well said HP.

Originally Posted by tableland (Post 4257095)

I also seem to be a master at touching your raw nerves. The issue here is perhaps one of long and short termism. Many people have looked at the UK and Australia and concluded - not unreasonably - that the latter offers more hope of a good life. The collapse of the British birth rate means that the tax will have to be very high in the UK to deal with the ageing population. This is one example of long-term trends that people are looking at.
In other words - which country will have the best opportunities in 30 years' time? Britain does offer a lot in my opinion, and remains a good country to live in, as is Australia. It's just about voicing an opinion, really, which people like yourself seem to be uncomfortable with, probably because you need your decision to live in the UK over Australia to be constantly reinforced, which is understandable.

Originally Posted by toandfro (Post 4264841)

this is not a uk phenomenon .the poulation in Aust is only increased with immigants. the population is aging faster than most other countries (IE no youngsters to add into the equation) the australian birth rate is negative growth and the age of first time mums (average) is early thirties .coupled with very low population to land mass services (IE roads hospitals etc)the tax burden per capita is much higher even now let alone in the future .the next thing is the lack of state funded services for the older population due to the tax burden and suddenly retiring to Aust or even living here in middle age becomes an expensive buiness .

Originally Posted by blowfly (Post 4264864)

The government give you $4.000 when you have a child as an incentive.you are quite right when you say that Australia is in negative growth.

Originally Posted by toandfro (Post 4264900)

maybe I should get a sex change and start breading for cash it wouldn't be what you would call fast money though;) :D adds a whole new meaning to I did it for the money :D