co durham boy

Crap laws in a crap country but don't get twisted into the system , there's very few real genuine cases of bad bank debt here but there's loads of cases of irresponsible people hocked up to the eyeballs with credit cards and car loans and 5 day stress breaks to the Maldives .

People got sucked into the Dubai machine and got spat out when it went tits up , they couldn't really afford to be here and were way above their station .
People coming and getting loans to pay rent and buy cars and not thinking that it'll all end eventually.

I personally think the Laws are rubbish but you must counteract that with being sensible and having a bit of responsibility.

Believe it or not you're better off on the Dole then on A wing in Bur Dubai Nick

Eeyore

Possibly because they believed all the propaganda that said it *couldn't* go tits-up? I remember that right up until the property market had started to collapse, an awful lot of otherwise-intelligent people were insisting that Dubai was going to be immune to the credit crunch. And then, once the truth had filtered through their brains, they started insisting that Dubai was going to bounce back faster than anywhere else. Ahem.

Plenty of people have no choice but to take a bank loan to pay rent, because *many* companies here do not offer help with rent. I think ITP is (or at least was) a typical example; I spoke to someone who'd come for an interview and who, when she asked about how she was supposed to pay a year's rent in advance, was told "You go and get a bank loan for it, it's just the way it's done here".

There used to be a member here called IndieGirl, who worked in one of the major banks. She confirmed that she regularly saw people earning 60-70k per month and upwards coming in and asking for loans to pay rent, because they couldn't get the necessary lump sums from their employers.

And plenty of people *were* sensible and responsible, but if you do everything right and then find yourself shafted by your company and have a blunt choice between doing a runner or going to jail, you'd have to be a certified idiot not to do the runner.

co durham boy

I wouldn't come near any Gulf country if i wasn't fully expensed in all areas up front end of story , accom , flights , medical , comms , transport and bonus.

If you can't afford you're rent and you're earning 60-70K per month then you're already a Dubai casualty . That's the problem you see that whole ethos of the Dubai machine bred on debt and greed and stupidity .

People will come here on peanut wages and shit deals just because they want to be here , it then slips their mind when they're doing brunch in the Madinat that it's a Muslim state which uses Sharia Law coupled with the morals of King Herod.

The Law is shit but use your loaf . Brits are the first ones to fall by the wayside , 2 brunches and a drive in a Landcruiser and they're never going back to Blighty........until the shit hits the fan and believe me it always does in the end .

Ex DXB

Hey Shiva, you NOB JOCKEY. Before you start throwing out cheap comments perhaps get an understanding of the REAL STORY. I did not intend on leaving Dubai with 20k debt. I went over, bought a entry level car and NEVER had any debt on my credit card and cleared any small amount i had on it each month. One year on and you are told you have been retrenched and have 30 DAYS to find another job or LEAVE the country. WTF? Trying to find anouther job at the end of '08 was like trying to find a friendly helpful Arab - non existent! So, I went to HSBC and explained my situation and said I had to leave and I would do everything in my powert to sell the car. Again, trying to sell a car at this time was impossible.

So what else do you do but leave. I kept in contact with HSBC every few weeks and kept tryint to sell the car while carrying on with my repayments. After 3 months I asked them to pick up the car and try and sell it as I couldnt. They dont care what they sell you car for and auctioned it foo for some stupid price. I was left with a difference that I had to pay and so I carried on for a few months while everyone said I was stupid to as they are covered by their own insurance. Yea 15k is not much to you sitting over in Dubai earning big tomb but in a normal country its still a fair bit. All I originally asked was for some advice to if you could ask for a lower settlement amount - if you dont ask you wont know.

But thanks for your comment making out as if I was one of those who went out and intentionally spent on their credit card and then made a runner.

The UAE need to wake up and realise they put themselves in those positions - giving out credit cards with 30k on each to people who have been there for 4 weeks?? Are you nuts?!

Do I have any intention of retuning to the UAE? No ways - human slavery and racism....arrogant arabs and a fake city. No thanks. But I do intend on sorting this out asap so I can put it to rest.

Eeyore

Good for you, but the brutal truth is that being "fully expensed in all areas up front" just isn't an option for many people here, quite possibly the majority. It doesn't matter how good at your job you are or how hard you negotiate; if it's company policy just to give a monthly salary, that's all you get.

Of course, even if they *are* just given a monthly salary, most people are better off here than they are in the UK. And if you're told "You get a bank loan for your rent, that's what everyone does", you just accept it.

If it's 2008 and you've just arrived and you need to find 275,000 AED in one cheque to rent a very ordinary villa in the Springs, what do you do when your company says "We don't do rent, get a bank loan"?

Not long before the collapse started, we met a finance director of a MAJOR global company who was genuinely worried about how he was going to afford to find a place to live. His company didn't pay rent or give rent loans, and he knew how much his landlord was going to be able to hike the rent up by. He was seriously considering moving to RAK and commuting into Dubai every day (yes, really).

Well, why else would anyone come here other than to enjoy a better standard of living than they've already got? There's so much crap to put up with (not least the bloody awful weather for half the year) that you need things like a nicer car than you could afford to run in your home country to make it worth all the hassle.

shiva

So to clarify, you had a car loan with no plan b and are now bitching about having to pay it back and it's not your fault because the banks shouldn't have lent money to idiots.
Ok now I get it.

Oh and it's knob don't forget the k, perhaps that's why 15k is an unmanageable sum. Just a thought.

Another thought would be to take a loan in the UK to clear the UAE, not a great plan but given the UK laws probably preferable to ever risking a plane landing in Dubai and you being arrested

co durham boy

With all due respect , you've just answered my argument .

Firstly i'd tell whoever was bringing me here to find me the accommodation or give me the money or i won't be coming.

Secondly , i wouldn't be getting a bank loan for nothing here , especially for rent just because i was told it 'that's the way things work here'

Thirdly , if the Finance manager of a Global Company was worried about finding a place to live than he's either a shite finance manager or he's working for a Mickey Mouse Finance Co .

Lastly , big mistake , don't come here for the lifestyle come for the money then the money you'll make will hopefully give you a better lifestyle in the future and No i don't think i'm in the Minority , most people i know or have known in the many years that i've been here have had decent Expat packages that cover the basics of their expenses .

The truth is that the market has been flooded by people over the last 5-6 years with zero expat experience and just being in Dubai was enough for them , they got chewed up and spat out .

If you're not getting you're dues just walk away , you're better off at Home

slapphead_otool

I’m not sure I agree with this. It’s a bit like a cannibal arriving in the UK and getting done for eating the neighbours, then complaining about it. Local rules apply…..

Everyone knew the rules, they knew the penalty for not being financially liquid. The trouble is a lot of people who shouldn’t leave home unattended rocked up in Dubai and went whacky with debt.

As someone pointed out elsewhere, all debt skips do is trash the reputation of long term expats.

co durham boy

Correct , the same as the guys coming in and taking contracts on shit deals just because they want to be in Dubai .

typical

I have a lot of sympathy for the idea that people should know what they're getting into, but also for the idea that people were "sold the dream" and didn't realise just what the implications of taking a loan could be.

However the above feels like "angry old expat rants about the newcomers worsening the terms for everyone". Dubai and the region was - for a while - a good safe-haven for people laid off elsewhere. When unemployment rises among the mobile, it's inevitable they'll go to wherever has jobs and work for worse terms than when MENA was a real hardship posting, as opposed to a destination out of necessity.

FWIW I bought a second hand car outright after saving a few months, and have never taken a commerical loan in Dubai; my company loans me my rent, but now my rent is less than one month's salary anyway.

co durham boy

Maybe a rant , certainly not angry , my point is that people are sacrificing the basics to get here , that spells trouble for them and has a knock on effect in that specific industry as it drives the packages down .

WakeUp

I didn't agree with all of your post but this part is excellent and some very good advice for any considering staying here or considering moving out here.

There is only one good reason to come here and that is to give yourself / your family a leg up and to enable you to have a better standard of living once you leave, where ever you go.

typical

I've only been in MENA for a short while (4 years) but I've been an expat for rather longer, and such feather-bedded packages are not the norm in other places - in some places they're becoming quite exceptional. The "basics" as per the old Dubai situation would be pretty hard to get in Singapore or Hong Kong, and are getting more difficult in Shanghai and Beijing, according to my friends out those ways.

I know several companies that specifically withdrew hardship allowances for Dubai in the past 2-3 years.

co durham boy

Yeah , you're bang on , i've seen packages decline fairly rapidly over the last 3 years , more on benefits than in actual basic salary , it's still a cost to the company which ever way you fluff it up though .

There are things in a package which i think are basic necessities for a senior ex-pat worker and some things that get tagged on as extras . Flights , Accommodation , Transport , Medical , Visa Fees and Annual Bonus constitutes a basic package in my industry . Schooling is the awkward one nowadays as it's a massive cost to the company .

Some deals are all in and some are split up , it doesn't really matter as long as the deal fits . The trouble starts when people don't follow a set of basic rules , obviously there's a lot of people who live quite happily within budget and without huge debts who don't get big packages and fair play to them for doing that . It's when people borrow to cover there basic living costs and outgoings that there's going to be hiccup in the long run .

OleJanx

It would appear that only Saudi and possibly Kuwait rate hardship allowances these days.