How to report a marriage fraud to INS?
Dec 9th 2003, 4:57 am
#31
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: How to report a marriage fraud to INS?
Leslie66 wrote:
> They are held to a different standard because they include a
> non-citizen. That is not convenient for most of us. It is the fair and
> right way when you consider the amount of fraud and abuse that there
> is. Two US citizens marrying each other, cannot possibly by the nature
> of the relationship be committing immigration fraud. Why would they be
> scrutinized for it?
Why of course not. There is a ton of other frauds and/or abuse they can
legally engage in... :-)
> They are held to a different standard because they include a
> non-citizen. That is not convenient for most of us. It is the fair and
> right way when you consider the amount of fraud and abuse that there
> is. Two US citizens marrying each other, cannot possibly by the nature
> of the relationship be committing immigration fraud. Why would they be
> scrutinized for it?
Why of course not. There is a ton of other frauds and/or abuse they can
legally engage in... :-)
Dec 9th 2003, 5:05 am
#32
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: How to report a marriage fraud to INS?
Dekka's Angel wrote:
> If you are honest and reflective for a minute, you will realize that
> you are not asking for the right to marry, which I agree everyone in a
> US-US match has
Not so. There is no real "right to marry". It is not spelt out in the
constitution. People who are already married do not have the right to
marry again (sans divorce or widowhood). People do not have the right to
marry minors. People do not have the right to marry the same sex (in
most states) nor to marry their sisters or brothers. The right to marry
does not exist.
> and thus, so should you. You are instead asking for a different right
> which is *not* possessed by most USC-based marriages: the right to
> marry anyone of your choosing and then remain as a couple in the
> United States when only *one of you* has that pre-existing right.
Good point and indeed the critical difference here.
> You are asking for the right to have your spouse granted in a rapid
> fashion
ROTFLMAO! Rapid fashion! That's a good one! Well I guess it's all
relative however I would not call it rapid.
> But I also respect the right of the US government to decide how to
> control its borders,
Slight correction... OUR borders.
> If you are honest and reflective for a minute, you will realize that
> you are not asking for the right to marry, which I agree everyone in a
> US-US match has
Not so. There is no real "right to marry". It is not spelt out in the
constitution. People who are already married do not have the right to
marry again (sans divorce or widowhood). People do not have the right to
marry minors. People do not have the right to marry the same sex (in
most states) nor to marry their sisters or brothers. The right to marry
does not exist.
> and thus, so should you. You are instead asking for a different right
> which is *not* possessed by most USC-based marriages: the right to
> marry anyone of your choosing and then remain as a couple in the
> United States when only *one of you* has that pre-existing right.
Good point and indeed the critical difference here.
> You are asking for the right to have your spouse granted in a rapid
> fashion
ROTFLMAO! Rapid fashion! That's a good one! Well I guess it's all
relative however I would not call it rapid.
> But I also respect the right of the US government to decide how to
> control its borders,
Slight correction... OUR borders.
Dec 9th 2003, 5:09 am
#33
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: How to report a marriage fraud to INS?
mystie888 wrote:
> My response was to the original post that said the BCIS should perhaps
> slow down and look at these cases more closely to validate that both
> parties truly love each other.
Change that to "make sure they are not committing immigration fraud".
Are you OK with that?
> I repeat... I never said I had the right to marry a non-US citizen and
> have him immigrate here, just the equal right like all other US
> citizens to decide for myself if I loved him.
Such a right does not exist. You are, however, already free to choose
who to fall in love with (as much as falling in love can be a choice),
be it a USC or a foreigner. If you choose a foreigner however you have
to deal with immigration, either immigration of the foreigner here or
your immigration there. That comes along with choosing to fall in love
with a foreigner.
> My response was to the original post that said the BCIS should perhaps
> slow down and look at these cases more closely to validate that both
> parties truly love each other.
Change that to "make sure they are not committing immigration fraud".
Are you OK with that?
> I repeat... I never said I had the right to marry a non-US citizen and
> have him immigrate here, just the equal right like all other US
> citizens to decide for myself if I loved him.
Such a right does not exist. You are, however, already free to choose
who to fall in love with (as much as falling in love can be a choice),
be it a USC or a foreigner. If you choose a foreigner however you have
to deal with immigration, either immigration of the foreigner here or
your immigration there. That comes along with choosing to fall in love
with a foreigner.
Dec 9th 2003, 5:10 am
#34
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: How to report a marriage fraud to INS?
> BTW, I haven't lost one of those marriage fraud defenses yet. I like
> them and have a certain amount of fun -- which you don't get from an
> asylum case.
ROFL! Surely a pushover (bearing in mind the USCIS lack of resources)
cannot elicit much fun? Be like taking candy from a baby!
Just kidding, Foly, you're doing a great job!
Kath
> them and have a certain amount of fun -- which you don't get from an
> asylum case.
ROFL! Surely a pushover (bearing in mind the USCIS lack of resources)
cannot elicit much fun? Be like taking candy from a baby!
Just kidding, Foly, you're doing a great job!
Kath
Dec 9th 2003, 8:12 am
#35
Just Joined
Joined: Nov 2003
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 21
Re: How to report a marriage fraud to INS?
Originally posted by Dekka's Angel
You have yet to explain how you are deprived of this right through the process.
You have yet to explain how you are deprived of this right through the process.
My point was not that I have been deprived of this right. In fact, I feel the process as it exists now does preserve that right. (but, I'm not even going to discuss the long waiting time.)
I was simply responding to someone's suggestion that:
"Almost makes one think that maybe the service centers and consulates should slow down a bit, and be a bit more demanding about evidence."
My point is that I don't want to be deprived of this right in the future.
And I guess my main point is GOOD GOD, even if you are kidding, how could anyone suggest they slow down more?...
~Mystie
Dec 9th 2003, 8:22 am
#36
Account Closed
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 16,266
Re: How to report a marriage fraud to INS?
Originally posted by Andrew Defaria
Folinskyinla wrote:
> The government doesn't care about your marriage unless YOU bring it to
> issue -- and you have.
> Also, they don't care about the "quality" of the marriage -- they just
> make sure its "real." A bona-fide low quality marriage is fine as far
> as the government is concerned.
Of course the government cares about your marriage to a foreigner. For
example, just try to marry somebody of the same sex! Won't fly. Just try
to submit a petition for somebody that you agree to marry based on
something other than love, something like money or the like. The
government won't buy it.You have to meet the government's definition or
"bona-fide" and "marriage" which is not the same all over the world.
There is little doubt that the government is in the "martial bedroom" so
to speak in this instance.
--
Hard work has a future payoff - Laziness pays off now.
Folinskyinla wrote:
> The government doesn't care about your marriage unless YOU bring it to
> issue -- and you have.
> Also, they don't care about the "quality" of the marriage -- they just
> make sure its "real." A bona-fide low quality marriage is fine as far
> as the government is concerned.
Of course the government cares about your marriage to a foreigner. For
example, just try to marry somebody of the same sex! Won't fly. Just try
to submit a petition for somebody that you agree to marry based on
something other than love, something like money or the like. The
government won't buy it.You have to meet the government's definition or
"bona-fide" and "marriage" which is not the same all over the world.
There is little doubt that the government is in the "martial bedroom" so
to speak in this instance.
--
Hard work has a future payoff - Laziness pays off now.
Even under DOMA [a misnoemer, I agree], the government doesn't really care unless you try to take legal advantage of the "marriage."
Also, even in man/woman relationships -- lets say you have two Los Angeles residents who are first cousins and get married in Los Angeles -- that is a legal marriage. Lets say they go to Las Vegas and get married. There is no legal marriage in that case.
You are correct as a matter of fact that BCIS might have problems with "unconventional" marriages -- but as a matter of law, they are just fine and dandy as long as immigration fraud [e.g. Lutwak v US -- the "mother" case from the Supremes on the subject] is not the SOLE purpose of the marriage -- there must be something other than a "sham".
Dec 9th 2003, 10:27 am
#37
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: How to report a marriage fraud to INS?
Folinskyinla wrote:
> Even under DOMA [a misnoemer, I agree], the government doesn't really
> care unless you try to take legal advantage of the "marriage."
"DOMA". What's a DOMA? Let's see Domestic O<something> Marriage Agreement?
What is a marriage but a legal advantage anyway? Everything else can be
done outside of a martial context that can be done inside a martial
context save legal issues. Marriage is a legal contract and a status and
with that contract/status comes certain legal advantages and
disadvantages. It is clear that government has an interest in marriage
as it bestows certain legal advantages and it is clear that government
discriminates as to who can be legally married and who can't.
> Also, even in man/woman relationships -- lets say you have two Los
> Angeles residents who are first cousins and get married in Los Angeles
> -- that is a legal marriage. Lets say they go to Las Vegas and get
> married. There is no legal marriage in that case.
Yes, two government agencies discerning the union differently from a
legal standpoint.
> You are correct as a matter of fact that BCIS might have problems with
> "unconventional" marriages -- but as a matter of law, they are just
> fine and dandy as long as immigration fraud [e.g. Lutwak v US -- the
> "mother" case from the Supremes on the subject] is not the SOLE
> purpose of the marriage -- there must be something other than a "sham".
I do recall a report on TV (20/20, 60 Minutes or something like that) of
a gay couple who was refused the visa because their "marriage" was
unconventional. It went to the Supremes. Don't know if that was Lutwak
or not. I believe the report ended with the fact that they were not
deemed married as per the INA therefore could not receive the
immigration benefit. Seems the BCIS has more than a "problem" with
unconventional marriages - it does not recognize them at all.
(Perhaps there has been further development in this case that I'm
unaware of).
> Even under DOMA [a misnoemer, I agree], the government doesn't really
> care unless you try to take legal advantage of the "marriage."
"DOMA". What's a DOMA? Let's see Domestic O<something> Marriage Agreement?
What is a marriage but a legal advantage anyway? Everything else can be
done outside of a martial context that can be done inside a martial
context save legal issues. Marriage is a legal contract and a status and
with that contract/status comes certain legal advantages and
disadvantages. It is clear that government has an interest in marriage
as it bestows certain legal advantages and it is clear that government
discriminates as to who can be legally married and who can't.
> Also, even in man/woman relationships -- lets say you have two Los
> Angeles residents who are first cousins and get married in Los Angeles
> -- that is a legal marriage. Lets say they go to Las Vegas and get
> married. There is no legal marriage in that case.
Yes, two government agencies discerning the union differently from a
legal standpoint.
> You are correct as a matter of fact that BCIS might have problems with
> "unconventional" marriages -- but as a matter of law, they are just
> fine and dandy as long as immigration fraud [e.g. Lutwak v US -- the
> "mother" case from the Supremes on the subject] is not the SOLE
> purpose of the marriage -- there must be something other than a "sham".
I do recall a report on TV (20/20, 60 Minutes or something like that) of
a gay couple who was refused the visa because their "marriage" was
unconventional. It went to the Supremes. Don't know if that was Lutwak
or not. I believe the report ended with the fact that they were not
deemed married as per the INA therefore could not receive the
immigration benefit. Seems the BCIS has more than a "problem" with
unconventional marriages - it does not recognize them at all.
(Perhaps there has been further development in this case that I'm
unaware of).
Dec 9th 2003, 10:37 am
#38
Banned
Joined: Sep 2002
Location: United States
Posts: 3,825
Re: How to report a marriage fraud to INS?
Originally posted by Andrew Defaria
Seems the BCIS has more than a "problem" with
unconventional marriages - it does not recognize them at all.
Seems the BCIS has more than a "problem" with
unconventional marriages - it does not recognize them at all.
The USCIS does not enact law. Instead they carry out the laws passed by Congress.
Dec 9th 2003, 11:46 am
#39
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: How to report a marriage fraud to INS?
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Matthew Udall wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="[email protected]">Ori ginally
posted by Andrew Defaria <br>
<blockquote type="cite">Seems the BCIS has more than a "problem" with
unconventional marriages - it does not recognize them at all.<br>
<!----></blockquote>
<!----><!---->The USCIS does not enact law. Instead they carry out the
laws passed by Congress.<br>
</blockquote>
Understood. However, any way you slice it the government does indeed
dictate what it deems is a valid marriage or not.<br>
<br>
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Matthew Udall wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="[email protected]">Ori ginally
posted by Andrew Defaria <br>
<blockquote type="cite">Seems the BCIS has more than a "problem" with
unconventional marriages - it does not recognize them at all.<br>
<!----></blockquote>
<!----><!---->The USCIS does not enact law. Instead they carry out the
laws passed by Congress.<br>
</blockquote>
Understood. However, any way you slice it the government does indeed
dictate what it deems is a valid marriage or not.<br>
<br>
</body>
</html>
Dec 9th 2003, 12:22 pm
#40
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: How to report a marriage fraud to INS?
mystie888 wrote:
>
> I think you are all missing my point, which is not that I have the right
> to marry a non-US citizen. I am in no way trying to say that. My point
> is that the government should not be in the business of evaluating the
> quality of my relationship with my fiance unless that standard is
> applied to all marriages in the US.
But not all marriages fall under the gaze of the BCIS. Also, they don't
evaluate the quality of the relationship (not that I can tell anyway)
>
> I think you are all missing my point, which is not that I have the right
> to marry a non-US citizen. I am in no way trying to say that. My point
> is that the government should not be in the business of evaluating the
> quality of my relationship with my fiance unless that standard is
> applied to all marriages in the US.
But not all marriages fall under the gaze of the BCIS. Also, they don't
evaluate the quality of the relationship (not that I can tell anyway)
Dec 9th 2003, 2:21 pm
#41
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: How to report a marriage fraud to INS?
elviswasmydad wrote:
> What could happen to a person if they filed a false marriage fraud
> accusation on another person. It seems that there should be some
> accountability for making false statements to immigration. The rules
> are clear not to lie about your own personal case, but what happens
> when someone lies about someone else? It would seem that should be as
> serious as lying about your own case.
> For example, in the case of Michelle and Herb, what if someone had
> caused them this awful delay and they havent done anything wrong.. It
> seems they should have some legal course of action that restitution be
> made to them by the person making false claims, if in fact that is
> what happened.
Slander(???)
--
BREAKFAST.COM Halted...Cereal Port Not Responding
> What could happen to a person if they filed a false marriage fraud
> accusation on another person. It seems that there should be some
> accountability for making false statements to immigration. The rules
> are clear not to lie about your own personal case, but what happens
> when someone lies about someone else? It would seem that should be as
> serious as lying about your own case.
> For example, in the case of Michelle and Herb, what if someone had
> caused them this awful delay and they havent done anything wrong.. It
> seems they should have some legal course of action that restitution be
> made to them by the person making false claims, if in fact that is
> what happened.
Slander(???)
--
BREAKFAST.COM Halted...Cereal Port Not Responding
Dec 9th 2003, 2:23 pm
#42
Concierge
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 46,478
Re: How to report a marriage fraud to INS?
Sorry but JEff never mentioned the word love in his post that you are referring to. To quote the great Tina Turner "What does love have to do with it?" A valid marriage does not have to include the love emotion for it to be valid. Your government is not perusing your marriage to ascertain the degree of your emotional "love" for one another. It is, however, scrutinizing your marriage to see that it is valid and entered into for reasons that are not for obtaining an immigration benefit from the US government only.
Rete
Rete
Originally posted by mystie888
I am very frustrated by my inability to make a point. I guess I should give up. I seem to have sparked quite a fury. My response was to the original post that said the BCIS should perhaps slow down and look at these cases more closely to validate that both parties truly love each other. And my point was that the last thing I want is the same agent that will send me an RFE for writing N/A instead of NONE is not the same person I want deciding if I truly love my fiance based on a few pages of narrative and some emails. AND that the long wait we are all enduring has nothing to do with this anyways.
I repeat... I never said I had the right to marry a non-US citizen and have him immigrate here, just the equal right like all other US citizens to decide for myself if I loved him.
~Mystie
I am very frustrated by my inability to make a point. I guess I should give up. I seem to have sparked quite a fury. My response was to the original post that said the BCIS should perhaps slow down and look at these cases more closely to validate that both parties truly love each other. And my point was that the last thing I want is the same agent that will send me an RFE for writing N/A instead of NONE is not the same person I want deciding if I truly love my fiance based on a few pages of narrative and some emails. AND that the long wait we are all enduring has nothing to do with this anyways.
I repeat... I never said I had the right to marry a non-US citizen and have him immigrate here, just the equal right like all other US citizens to decide for myself if I loved him.
~Mystie
Dec 9th 2003, 4:27 pm
#43
Just Joined
Joined: Nov 2003
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 21
Re: How to report a marriage fraud to INS?
Originally posted by Rete
Sorry but JEff never mentioned the word love in his post that you are referring to. To quote the great Tina Turner "What does love have to do with it?" A valid marriage does not have to include the love emotion for it to be valid. Your government is not perusing your marriage to ascertain the degree of your emotional "love" for one another. It is, however, scrutinizing your marriage to see that it is valid and entered into for reasons that are not for obtaining an immigration benefit from the US government only.
Rete
Sorry but JEff never mentioned the word love in his post that you are referring to. To quote the great Tina Turner "What does love have to do with it?" A valid marriage does not have to include the love emotion for it to be valid. Your government is not perusing your marriage to ascertain the degree of your emotional "love" for one another. It is, however, scrutinizing your marriage to see that it is valid and entered into for reasons that are not for obtaining an immigration benefit from the US government only.
Rete
That is exactly my point! I want to keep it that way. Right now they don't peruse my marriage to ascertain the degree of emotional love. You don't seem to realize that we are on the same page. I was responding to what I felt was a suggestion that the government START ascertaining the degree of love. If I misinterpreted JEff's suggestion, then I apologize. But, when he said "Everybody is in such a rush to be united with their true love, but we are getting so many reminders these days that the love is sometimes only 1 way. Sad, but true." I assumed he meant that the government should be trying to determine if the love is mutual or of marriage quality. Even if, as I now see, he was not suggesting this, I feel there are people out there who feel that way. I wanted to say that would be unfair and not to mention impossible to do!
If you read my original post, I think the critical words that everyone is missing are "If it should be imposed...". As immigration laws stand right now, they do not ever evaluate "love" and my point is that they never should. I think I am suffering from the inability to express myself as eloquently as all of you.
~Mystie
Dec 10th 2003, 12:08 am
#44
Member
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14,049
Re: How to report a marriage fraud to INS?
mystie,
The government is supposed to be screening entrants to the US to assure that they are entering in accordance with the laws established for immigration.
There have been quite a few posts in recent months from people who feel that their spouses have entered the US fraudulantly, marrying them only to get the green card and then doing a runner. I am seeing more posting along this line now than I remember in the past.
I suggested that perhaps the government is not screening cases carefully enough if these alleged fraudulant situations are happening.
Regards, JEff
The government is supposed to be screening entrants to the US to assure that they are entering in accordance with the laws established for immigration.
There have been quite a few posts in recent months from people who feel that their spouses have entered the US fraudulantly, marrying them only to get the green card and then doing a runner. I am seeing more posting along this line now than I remember in the past.
I suggested that perhaps the government is not screening cases carefully enough if these alleged fraudulant situations are happening.
Regards, JEff
Originally posted by mystie888
That is exactly my point! I want to keep it that way. Right now they don't peruse my marriage to ascertain the degree of emotional love. You don't seem to realize that we are on the same page. I was responding to what I felt was a suggestion that the government START ascertaining the degree of love. If I misinterpreted JEff's suggestion, then I apologize. But, when he said "Everybody is in such a rush to be united with their true love, but we are getting so many reminders these days that the love is sometimes only 1 way. Sad, but true." I assumed he meant that the government should be trying to determine if the love is mutual or of marriage quality. Even if, as I now see, he was not suggesting this, I feel there are people out there who feel that way. I wanted to say that would be unfair and not to mention impossible to do!
If you read my original post, I think the critical words that everyone is missing are "If it should be imposed...". As immigration laws stand right now, they do not ever evaluate "love" and my point is that they never should. I think I am suffering from the inability to express myself as eloquently as all of you.
~Mystie
That is exactly my point! I want to keep it that way. Right now they don't peruse my marriage to ascertain the degree of emotional love. You don't seem to realize that we are on the same page. I was responding to what I felt was a suggestion that the government START ascertaining the degree of love. If I misinterpreted JEff's suggestion, then I apologize. But, when he said "Everybody is in such a rush to be united with their true love, but we are getting so many reminders these days that the love is sometimes only 1 way. Sad, but true." I assumed he meant that the government should be trying to determine if the love is mutual or of marriage quality. Even if, as I now see, he was not suggesting this, I feel there are people out there who feel that way. I wanted to say that would be unfair and not to mention impossible to do!
If you read my original post, I think the critical words that everyone is missing are "If it should be imposed...". As immigration laws stand right now, they do not ever evaluate "love" and my point is that they never should. I think I am suffering from the inability to express myself as eloquently as all of you.
~Mystie
Dec 10th 2003, 1:01 am
#45
Just Joined
Joined: Nov 2003
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 21
Re: How to report a marriage fraud to INS?
Originally posted by jeffreyhy
mystie,
The government is supposed to be screening entrants to the US to assure that they are entering in accordance with the laws established for immigration.
There have been quite a few posts in recent months from people who feel that their spouses have entered the US fraudulantly, marrying them only to get the green card and then doing a runner. I am seeing more posting along this line now than I remember in the past.
I suggested that perhaps the government is not screening cases carefully enough if these alleged fraudulant situations are happening.
Regards, JEff
mystie,
The government is supposed to be screening entrants to the US to assure that they are entering in accordance with the laws established for immigration.
There have been quite a few posts in recent months from people who feel that their spouses have entered the US fraudulantly, marrying them only to get the green card and then doing a runner. I am seeing more posting along this line now than I remember in the past.
I suggested that perhaps the government is not screening cases carefully enough if these alleged fraudulant situations are happening.
Regards, JEff
~Mystie
