Somebody mentioned aliens way back in this thread which made me smile. I do not believe in the big man in the sky, any more than I believe in Santa or fairies. It's a nice idea, but it's just a fabrication IMO. If there is 'someone' watching over us, I would be rather pissed off. I would like to ask them what the hell they are playing at. I find the idea that there are other beings ie: aliens out there in other galaxies a lot more feasible.

Sorry SEAN, I'm not picking on you honest! It was just easier to quote your post

Come on, why be so timid to admit that?

Matthew 13:49 an after:

49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth

Matthew 18:9: And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Hey, why should I continue here? Maybe you go read the Bible? It's all digitized now, easily searchable.

As I said above, all the time I wonder if anyone of true believers ever read it.

Like I said - where does it say non-catholics go to hell?

And I've read large portions in the original greek than you very much!

For Christ the wicked are often those who profess to believe yet oppress the poor and the vulnerable.

My final word - gawd 'elp me! -

Some very brainy good people have chosen to be religious, and have changed the world for the good.

It's hard to argue about personal beliefs when those you argue with presume you are ignorant, brainwashed, intellectually lazy, un-questioning, non-reflective, hypocritical while presuming that "science" has all the answers, or at least all the good questions.

On the other hand - nd not talking about anyone on this board obviously! There tend to be lots of sanctimonious, holier than thou, closed minded atheists and non-believers around in my observation.

I think I'll spend some time on the gun and hunting boards for a while, and chat with western god-fearing rednecks who kill game and eat meat.

I am currently now in Bordeux - France.

Here is some facts and food for thought for you:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture

http://news.aol.com/newsbloggers/200...s-of-the-west/

http://www.ttf.org/index/journal/det...-constitution/

I also think you should read the Law section on Wikipedia which states that the old testament is the oldest document relevant to our modern law or something like that......

You've argued well and intellegently through out this. Often against posts that were more ridicule than any real intellectual debate.

I have nothing further to add to this thread and will go and find somewhere else to argue. Chow.

Facts? Merely stating something is not making it fact. Wikipedia asserts that liberty, democracy are coming from Greece and Rome. Christian faith brought spiritualism and morals (more about that later). The link from TTF argues that while Greece and Rome started something, democracy flourished in Christian Europe. The proofs are, obviously, repressions against heretics, disregard of women, crusades and many other wonderful things that we attribute to our modern society. The middle link is simply b.s. - it doesn't stand any critic and simply is a childish statement. But a blogger is not a scientist after all, let's forgive him.

Fact is still that Greeks and Romans started the process in regard to society. There is scientific evidence - this is what I believe in. Now, regarding morals. It's not an easy one, for you can't document morals. I already pointed to some statements from New Testament that show it far from ideal for our morals. But again, Gospels are not evidence for morals.

The question of where the moral comes from is indeed an interesting one, and it interested many scientists, and of course there were enough studies done. Scientific ones. The results, as many can guess, were that basic morals are shared regardless of religion. Even kinds of pagan Mumba-Jumba tribes were included in the study and they demonstrated excellent judgement. What was interesting, but not surprising in any way, was that as soon as an element of religion was introduced, the morals were totally screwed up. I can't give you very exact example - it was a book that I returned to my library, but to give you an idea how it works:

Imagine asking people how could they call a guy who risked or lost his life trying to save a dozen of others, a hero or an idiot? Right. Now, try asking an average muslim from Mid-East about another muslim losing his life trying to save a dozen of Jews or Westerners. My example of course is simply exagerrated, but again, I wanted to give you an idea.

And I don't even want to start discussing Old Testament as a foundation of our modern law. Our modern law doesn't approve extermination of whole cities, or homosexuals, or treating women/wifes like cattle. While we can argue over and question the New Testament, the Old one is simply a book of horrors or, let's put it mildly, statements going against the most simple scientific evidence.

PS. I find this thread quite entertaining, but most likely I won't be able to reply during working days. Have a good week!

I'm lucky myself not to have been educated by Jesuits.



No longer for me. I'm finding it depressing. But you have a good week too.

Do we live in tribes? stick spears through our noses? eat family members once they die or any of that tribal stuff where mainstream religion doesn't exists? nope....Yes all that crap happened but that's why religion is fading.

An interesting point religion would appear to have most if not all the answers for the lay person
Science on the other hand would appear to be the creator of all the questions, some of which can be answered by both and some that are unable to ever be answered

The fact that you can get a Master or a doctorate in either would suggest that neither has all the question or answers

I think one of the steps that does separate the scientists from the religious is faith,
(To make this point clear this is not for the armchair scientist or armchair theologians, they have probably made many leaps of faith to get to their current viewpoints)

I’m sure that the world of religion has gaps and disconnects with its teachings and the real world, in science this is one of it key drivers.
After many years of putting all the pieces together, and finding the gaps, and going further to read and study the material that covers those gaps, you’re still left with smaller but more defined gaps
My perception is that religion at this point takes a leap of faith, (it has to!) smoothes over the gaps and provides reason and meaning as well as a filler of gaps by introducing a supernatural deity and I’m sure students of theology don’t jump here lightly (unlike some followers)
In my view of science, certainly in the world of the scientific atheist that leap of faith can be seen as being a shortcut to the answer,. (42)
In my world if you don’t know what’s in the gap you need to keep on looking and studying, in my field of cosmology people of religion are rare and often as they enter the subject as dedicated and as skilled in their work as any of the others, it's hard sometimes to watch them deal with their internal conflicts as they move forward, (we all do to some point) and a few do manage to reconcile their faith and their new knowledge and understanding, there is also good reason other than the level of subject matter why the course tends to have high drop out rate too (for what its worth my view of the universe doesn’t rule out a deity it just has a very small probability of existence and a defining set of rules that limit its possible interaction)
Modern science tends to leave little room for a god, however modern science also knows that we humans are built with an natural tendency to want to accept the super natural
http://www.newscientist.com/article/...%20es-god.html

Its worth remembering that being religious is the normal state for a human being at this point in our evolution.

It’s only a few in particular areas of study that are suggesting that this state for that majority should start to change to that of a growing minority (16% of the world are non-religious)

Well written and well said.

However, it's the actual leap that interests me personally. Do we leap, or not, into the void (the German theologians Karl Barth and Bultmann wrote on this fairly extensively)? Bultmann even wrote that if they found the bones of Christ it would not shake his faith in the resurrection - not the rantings of a bigot, but the natural conclusion his German mind led him to while following the byways of philosophy and theology.

The leap interests me, because we make similar leaps in human relationships - especially romantic/love relationships. The leap seems to create something new in us.

None of what you have written shakes my personal faith, in fact I embrace it, since my personal experiences give me hope of eternity and eternal "love," beyond sense and reason.

Pascal wrote: "The heart has reasons which Reason knows not of."

If the clues for the existence of God were there for all to see we would believe, but we would not need faith. I do not need to have faith in gravity - it just works. In the New Testament Christ's miracles repelled as many as they attracted, and we're not done as "proof," and were done reluctantly leaving many to doubt him - why else was he crucified? When the divine enters history it does so in such a way that leaves the dignity of our humanity intact.

This ambiguity leaves room for the biggest human gift of all - free will.

I, personally, don't see the question of religion and science as either/or, but both/and.

And I embrace the irrationality of that, and freely choose to believe in a creator god. My religion is the language and vocabulary I use to describe and celebrate that belief.

That's okay, it's hard to agree on religious issues because it's so deep and has so many issues that branch off into more issues etc. Not to mention how devout some people are...

-Sean

Well, from Darwinism point of view, you may be right. As soon as it will become unnecessary in the process of natural selection, religion will die. There are certain reasons, like survival of groups, that contributed in the past to religion's development in the context of evolution. I think the process will take time, though there is less and less space left for religion, every day.

Personally, that pace is not fast enough for me. Few important things on why:

Natural selection doesn't play a big role here. Propagation of religion is not biological, it's not encoded on DNA. It's propagated abusively when children are told lies by those people whom they trust per definition.

While religion does make people do good things, though the same good things are equally done by atheists, it calls for bad things too, and people do that without questioning. Justification is easy. It all started when God told Abraham to kill his son in god's name to try old man's faith (good joke, Genesis, Old Testament - the basis of our laws and morals, you kick me). And it still continues, with 9/11 and other suicide bombers, or GWB claiming that "god told him he must go with war to Iraq".

Well this is coming from National Geographic but there is research that there is a gene that allows us to recognize creation and religious beliefs. And human language is actually in DNA.

This is just what I heard off National Geographic...

I am a Roman Catholic and go to Mass every week, or day now that we are into Lent. I go because of my own beliefs, which I don't force upon anyone - my children yes but if they decide at 16 they want to go elsewhere then they have that free choice.

I also believe that the Jewish and Muslim faith worship the same God, Jews cannot accept Jesus was the Messiah, Muslims came a lot longer after Jews and after Christians believe in a lot of both.

If you believe and follow the Catholic faith but have also looked into what you believe deeply you will understand that the rules, laws etc that are referred to come from God via Christ or the Holy Spirit. Therefore if you believe this you will then understand that you should change and not God's Church !! Chirst said that following Him would not be easy and each one would have to pick up and carry his own cross.

I also respect others who have a different belief, no belief or choose to sit on the fence. I don't believe in Darwin theories, or Stephen Hawkins - but understand and respect people who do. If people want to have a go at me for what I say here, I can still smile and turn the other cheek and say a prayer for them.

The only other thing I am careful of what I watch or read, things can be reported in many ways whether it be for or against religions.

God Bless

JET

But do you really? or are you just saying that to make people happy?

because usually it's 'are you with us or against us' which is what I have found with religion.

Some Jehovah's witnesses came to the door the other day we had quite a long discussion; I asked questions about fossils, evolution etc etc etc but they never have a definite answer...it's always "because it's in the Bible" or "because of Satan trying to deceive us" although I have to admit when it comes to Jehovah's witnesses they are a lot more open and aware. They do not believe people are sent to hell to suffer for eternity or anything like that.

This is a question for atheists;

Where does the human soul come from? and why do we have guilt, love, empathy, loyalty, joy, pride etc? If we evolved 'just' to survive as a species I doubt we would have such depth.